Pete Dye courses (Top shelf and Gems)

[BCowan]

What courses do Dye enthusiasts consider to be Pete's best work?  I have played Honors, Crooked, The Golf Club, and Radrick.  3 of the 4 were his earliest work.  Pete Dye GC, Kiawah, Fowlers Mills, and Purdue courses looks enticing to me.  Is there a decade you prefer of Pete?  Any Dye gems or Top shelfs that you recommend?  Did Pete possibly do better with a small budget?       

[Anthony_Nysse]

What courses do Dye enthusiasts consider to be Pete's best work?  I have played Honors, Crooked, The Golf Club, and Radrick.  3 of the 4 were his earliest work.  Pete Dye GC, Kiawah, Fowlers Mills, and Purdue courses looks enticing to me.  Is there a decade you prefer of Pete?  Any Dye gems or Top shelfs that you recommend?  Did Pete possibly do better with a small budget?       

Long Cove is so good and falls under many radars for whatever reason. That's an everyday golf course. I'm partial to Old Marsh, but the forced carries and wetlands can beat you up. But its a setting unlike any other in south Florida.


Played Crooked Stick a few weeks ago and really liked it. Some newer stuff and his older stuff.


Ocean Course and Honors are not only good courses, but world class sites.


Colleton River is still the best Dye course in the HHI area. Outstanding collection of holes and setting, especially the back 9.

[PCCraig]

The Ocean Course at Kiawah is awesome, and I like it better every time I play it.


I really liked Crooked Stick a lot. The one par-5 with the boomerang green modeled after the UM course is all world.


Blackwolf Run (River) is fantastic, and I find it a lot more fun to play than its more famous neighbor Whistling Straits. 


Obviously, there is TPC Sawgrass and Harbor Town, which are much discussed.


I liked his course at French Lick. There were some very neat holes there. But I think the property really limited what he could do (nearly every hole is benched onto a severe hillside).


On the less expensive end, Big Fish in Hayward Wisconsin is a fun and pretty low key layout. I really enjoy the Kampen course as well although that course plays a bit like a "greatest hits" album where you keep saying "I've seen this hole before..."


Around Indy there is the Fort, which is a great public course on an old military base. Brickyard Crossing is also a Dye course which is fun, but mostly for the novelty.


There is a "Pete Dye" course in Chicago called Ruffled Feathers which is a housing development and one of the worst golf courses on the planet.

[Brian Finn]

Unfortunately, I don't bring much new to this discussion, but as a fan of (much of) Pete Dye's work, I do want to participate.

My favorites are mostly usual suspects...in approximate order:  The Golf Club, Kiawah Ocean, Harbour Town, TPC Sawgrass, Crooked Stick, Pete Dye GC, Long Cove, and PGA West Stadium.  Pete Dye GC is probably the best cartball course (can't or at least shouldn't be walked) I have played.

I've played at least a dozen more, and I have to say there are a few disappointments, including a true Doak Zero (many of you know what course I am talking about - I have trouble believing Pete was actually involved). 

As far as hidden gems go, I am planning to play Oak Hollow in High Point, NC in the near future.  I have heard from several folks that it is a really fun early (1972) Dye. 

[Brad Tufts]

I've always thought there was a quite a difference between those that Pete obvious spent alot of time, and perhaps had more funding, then those that included fewer visits or were completed mostly by his family.

Here's my Pete Dye resume:

Great: Brickyard Crossing, Crooked Stick, Oak Tree, Pete Dye GC....really liked all of these, CS is probably my #4 here.

Good: Wintonbury Hills (perhaps belongs above), Kampen, The Fort (w/Liddy), Chatham Hills (opened this year), Eagle Pines @ Disney (NLE, under the new 4 Seasons), Woodland CC, Paiute Wolf....all of these are/were worth a game, if not top shelf.

OK: Trump National CA, Eagle Creek (an early Dye muni on great land)...not terrible but with flaws.

Jury's Out:

French Lick Dye...I know it's supposed to be a showcase project, but I thought it was forced, too long, required HUGE cuts and fills to make it work, and the whimsical touches like the volcano bunkers were pointless.  It's a pretty place to be, and not the worst course ever, but add the fact that it's $300+ to play and ugh.  I'd play the Ross course and it's epic par threes about 15 more times before I would play this again.

Old Quarry (Curacao)...This one is on a seaside property and has a few great holes, but the majority of it is cramped target golf.  I played it when it was only a year old or less on a winter vacation, but I would bet the local infrastructure will have a tough time maintaining it correctly to be playable for resort guests.  Though I guess this applies to much of Caribbean golf anywhere you go.

Other Dye family courses I've played:

Rum Pointe (PB?)...this would be in the "ok"...fine but not really memorable.
Riverdale Dunes (Perry?)...good
Boone Valley (PB)...good, #1 course in MO at times
Royal Links (Perry)...Fun, Vegas is the PERFECT place for this!

I still think while Pete has built some great courses, his greatest legacy will be the tree of architects he employed/educated/ influenced, as well as his daring to re-inject the quirkiest of traditional features (railroad ties and blindness as opposed to ground game, for instance) into modern US golf.

[Steve Burrows]

While they [/size]are light-years from his greatest courses, and I wouldn't say they even qualify as "gems," I recommend people interested in Mr. Dye's development as a designer to visit Maple Creek Country Club and Sahm golf course, both located in Indianapolis.  They each predate his more well known early work at Crooked Stick and The Golf Club but still provide a glimpse of what was to come later in his career, specifically with respect to greens contouring.[/color]

[Carl Rogers]

This is where I am somewhat disappointed in Vol 3 of the Confidential Guide as pertains to Virginia.  Not a lot of reviews.

Pete Dye's River Course in Radford, VA is not included.  It is the home course of the Virginia Tech Hokies.  Stunning site at a bend of the New River and brutally hard long course.  Many standard Dye elements including the figure 8 routing of both nines.  Very walkable.  How would this course rate?

Virginia Beach National is not included.  Probably the best accessible course in VA Beach, but that is not saying much. My only surmise about the course is that the ownership badly missed what the tourist market would pay and the course had to settle for a moderate price in a fairly over supplied market.  Many standard Dye elements, but they seem done without much conviction.  Clubhouse way over done.  Very walkable.

Are Raters and Reviewers reluctant to visit a less than "Top Shelf" course for fear of diminishing Dye's or someone else's reputation?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

All of the Dye courses that I've played have been very good. In no particular order:
Bulle Rock in MD
PGA West Stadium
Mountain @ LaQuinta
Snow@Paiute
Ocean @ Kiawah


Haven't played here yet but Mystic Rock @ Nemacolin Woodlands in western PA is #1 public in PA and the new Shepherd's Rock there is getting rave reviews.

[Tom_Doak]

This seems a woefully incomplete list so far.


In Mr. Dye's book, he devotes a chapter to each of the following courses ... nearly all of which he lived on during the construction.  I would therefore venture that these are his most important:


El Dorado [his first course]
Crooked Stick
The Golf Club
Harbour Town
Teeth of the Dog
Oak Tree
TPC Stadium Course
Long Cove
The Honors Course
The Mountain Course at LaQuinta and The Stadium Course at PGA West - combined into one chapter, and I would venture they are maybe less worthy individually than most others here
Old Marsh
Blackwolf Run
The Pete Dye Club, W.V.
The Ocean Course at Kiawah
Brickyard Crossing


That's a pretty good start!  The only one of those courses where Pete wasn't on site nearly every day for a long stretch was the Pete Dye Club, but he was there off and on for 15 years, so I think it deserves its place.  Brickyard Crossing was his latest course when the book was published, so it was bound to be included, but I'm not sure it's in the same league as most of the rest.


What of his work over the last 20 years ought to be included is much more debatable.  Other than Whistling Straits, I don't know which projects he spent a lot of time on.

[Ira Fishman]

I am guessing that Blackwolf Run does not get a lot of love on this site, but I thought it was a terrific course.  Other than the 13th, even the (many) difficult holes were well-designed.  There is a movement in virtually every fairway, and the greens had wonderful contours.  The 5th is one of the truly memorable holes I have experienced.


Ira

[Joe Bausch]

I am guessing that Blackwolf Run does not get a lot of love on this site, but I thought it was a terrific course.  Other than the 13th, even the (many) difficult holes were well-designed.  There is a movement in virtually every fairway, and the greens had wonderful contours.  The 5th is one of the truly memorable holes I have experienced.

Ira

Ira,

I also liked the River course at Blackwolf Run. 

Photos from a May 2011 visit:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/BlackwolfRunRiver/index.html

[Stewart Abramson]

 Ben, Teeth of the Dog. Book your flight.


Brian, which is a Doak zero?

[Tim Martin]

Kiawah Ocean-Top Shelf
Landfall- Gem

[Nigel Islam]

These are the ones I've played:
Very Good

1. The Golf Club (love that course, was my favorite modern)
2. Crooked Stick (Best course in Indiana, don't let the naysayers fool you)
3. Harbor Town (Obviously I love early Dye)
4. Kiawah Ocean
5. Straits


Good
6. TPC Sawgrass
7. Honors
8. The Fort (Not sure what Ben is alluding at, but this is probably a good start)


Worth playing once
9. Pete Dye French Lick
10.  Brickyard
11. Black wolf Run (I'm not good enough)
12. Boone Valley (PB?)
13. Royal Links (Perry?)
14. Kearney Links (Perry?)


Hidden Gems
15. Woodland CC
16. Eagle Creek (old routing)
17.  Sahm (I love the place)
18. Plainfield Elks (Oak Tree) (This might be a skip, can't remember)


Skip
19. Plum Creek
20. Greenbelt (not sure he did anything here or not)


I need to go see the Purdue courses, but tough for an IU boy to commit to that.
I also would like to check Chatham out if I ever get to Indy during golf season.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I would be remiss if I didn't cast a vote for Teeth of the Dog, where I have a home.  Pete has called it his favorite, mostly because of what it has meant to the community and country.  But it wouldn't have meant as much if it were not the great course that it is.

[Paul Jones]

   I would be remiss if I didn't cast a vote for Teeth of the Dog, where I have a home.  Pete has called it his favorite, mostly because of what it has meant to the community and country.  But it wouldn't have meant as much if it were not the great course that it is.

Jim,


Teeth of the Dog is on my short list for 2018 !!!

[Martin Lehmann]

For one reason or another, Southern Hills Plantation, a Pete Dye signature course in the Tampa area, Florida is never mentioned. Played it several times in recent years and liked it tremendously.


Some weeks ago West Cliffs, a new ocean front course an hour north of Lisbon, Portugal was opened. It's a Cynthia Dye design, Pete Dye's niece. Excellent golf course!

[Brian Bowman]

I've been to both Crooked Stick, and The Golf Club.  I think both of these early courses show what a great mind Mr. Dye was working with, using both newer design elements for the time, and making the courses a joy to play.


The Golf Club is probably the best overall experience I have found for a golf club. The property is enormous, and the holes are routed in a very playable way.  While there is some discussion from membership about his redesign of some of the holes (mainly the 5th) he nailed removing large amounts of trees, opening wonderful sight lines in the property.  The 4th green is a much more "wild" green than the rest, which is what had the membership stirring, however, it is still a fantastic golf hole.

[Josh Tarble]

I think all of the really high-level Dye courses have been mentioned.  Of what I've played, Harbor Town, Whistling Straits, Kiawah, Crooked Stick, TPC Sawgrass, and Blackwolf Run are all very unique and most certainly worth playing. Along with a few others that I haven't played (Golf Club, Honors, Long Cove, Teeth of the Dog, maybe Pete Dye GC) I'd put these a level above anything else he's done.  In my opinion, these are truly exceptional courses.


I recently played both Kampen and the new Ackerman-Allen courses at Purdue.  I really think Kampen is very, very good.  Really good par 4s and par 5s.  I do think the par 3s really bring the course down a level though.  There are 2 identical holes on opposite sides of the same pond.  To make it worse they're hole 2 and 17 so they really stick in your mind.


Of other courses mentioned, Chatham Hills, which is brand new is really excellent.  Perhaps a few too many houses on the course for some on this site, but the holes and routing are excellent.


Old Marsh is exceptional.  I recently played it and was amazed at how well designed it is.  It's really tough, but it's built in the middle of a swamp basically and there is typically plenty of room to navigate around trouble. 


I think French Lick is too weird to be really good.  The views and amenities are incredible, it makes for a great experience, but the course itself is a funhouse ride.  It's certainly worth playing but it isn't in my top 10 favorite Dye courses.


I love Brickyard Crossing.  It won't crack any lists but it's one of the most fun courses in the Midwest in my opinion.  The difficult holes are very challenging but their are plenty of birdie opportunities out there too.


One that no one has listed, is Country Club of Indianapolis.  It isn't technically a Dye, but he really cut his teeth out there starting out.  I believe he primarily worked on the grounds crew, but I think he also did some work on some of the greens.  If you're in Indy, you could do worse than CCI.

[Ron Smith]

Growing up in central Indiana I've spent the better part of my life playing Dye courses.  I have a soft spot for his designs and find they usually are appealing to my eye.  I would say I enjoy his earlier work, the subtle angles and gentle greens.  I recently played the renovated Akerman course at Purdue.  I felt it was a great example of Pete showing restraint on a great piece of property.  It can play longer than Kampen from the back tees and provide all the challenge you want while still playing very accessible for average player at the correct tees. 

I would put my favorite two Dye courses I have played as the Ocean and Golf Club.  The golf club was a pleasure to play and felt like it flowed through the property effortlessly.  I enjoyed the diversity of holes and a lack water or forced carries like seen in many later designs.  The small ridge protecting the 10th green is a feature that sticks out in my mind as both unique and perfectly implemented.  The Ocean course, though not a subtle in design offers as much variety as I've seen.  Depending on the tees and the wind, the course can play so different each round.  The combination of the ease of walking and a fantastic location and the Ocean is a great experience.

[Joe Hellrung]

Dye's I've played:


Straits
Irish
Blackwolf River
Blackwolf Meadow
Honors
Atlanta National


Of these six, the pair at Blackwolf are my favorite.  They are an excellent challenge, utilize the site very well, and are lots of fun. 


In the Straits courses, I appreciate what Dye did with basically unlimited resources, but it is too extreme for my taste. 


Honors was a nice walk, but a little ho-hum for my taste. 


Atlanta National is very much a target golf course, but unfairly maligned on this site IMO.  It is a fine walk, though some of the course redesign made it harder than it needs to be, and there are some great risk/reward holes and half-pars. 

[Jason Thurman]

I haven't played a bad Dye course. I'm told that they're out there. I just haven't played any that I wouldn't recommend to others.


My top tier of Dye courses has a lot of the usual suspects. Teeth of the Dog is far and away my favorite, and Pete Dye Golf Club was far and away my favorite before that. And I also really love Blackwolf Run (the original composite course is just brilliant, and I also love the River as a whole although I prefer the Meadow-Valleys holes on the composite) and Whistling Straits. I'll echo what others have said about Kampen, The Fort, Crooked Stick, and Brickyard Crossing (which I think is quite a bit better than some give it credit for - it may not be among his very best courses, but it's still a fantastic golf course with an environment that makes it a true must-play in a great golf city).


Pete Dye's portfolio is so deep and of such a generally high quality and features so many obvious signature elements that I think it's easy to overlook just how good his best stuff really is. It feels like Dye courses tend to get thrown into one big bucket sometimes and evaluated as a group of good, tough, heavily-engineered designs that we look at as part of the aggregate instead of as unique courses that stand on their own. I realize that this is just my perception, but the fact that I'm responding a thread titled "Pete Dye Courses" (as opposed to a thread about a specific Pete Dye course) sorta serves as Exhibit A. When Tom Doak builds a 12 hole par 3 course, a thread gets devoted to it and hits two pages in 24 hours. When Pete Dye redesigns Keswick Hall, it takes Ran writing a course profile to even hear it mentioned on this site. And I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it does take some of the nuance out of discussing Pete Dye's work.


I say all that to say this: Teeth of the Dog is one of the world's great golf courses, period. Golf is never better than when played on the seashore, and there can't be eight courses in the world that use an oceanfront site as well as Teeth of the Dog does. Pete Dye Golf Club is also extraordinary. And we spend all kinds of time picking at the style of Whistling Straits, but it's hard to think of a course that does a better job of being fun to play while also testing almost every aspect of a player's ability. The same can be said of Blackwolf Run.


I had the thought while playing Pete Dye Golf Club that, if I wasn't a nerd who travels around playing all the courses I can and who specifically had made it a point to play a few other Dye courses, that everything about the course would feel revelatory to a first-time player. It's just a wonderful golf course with very little to nitpick (I disagree with my friend Brian Finn's earlier post - I thought it was a very pleasant walk and completely unremarkable in terms of the difficulty of the hike). The nitpicking I hear tends to focus on the 4th and 13th holes, a pair of par 3s that will feel immediately recognizable to anyone familiar with Dye's work. And I suppose it's a fair criticism that Pete Dye courses tend to feature a few common elements, and the shaping tends to look similar from one to the next, and some of the playing strategies are a bit repetitive. But it's kind of a weak critique when the best courses in the world are supposed to be ones you could play every day as a member and never tire of. What's more repetitive than that?

[Evan Fleisher]

I have a "reasonable sampling" of Dye courses on my playing resume...

ASU Karsten Golf Course
Avalon Golf & Country Club Avalon Lakes Course
Big Fish Golf Club
Blackwolf Run Golf Club Rivers Course
Colleton River Plantation Club Dye Course
Eagle Creek Golf Club
Fowler's Mill Golf Course Maple Course (9-Hole)
Fowler's Mill Golf Course River / Lake Course
Hampton Hall Club
Harbour Town Golf Links
Heron Point Golf Club
Kiawah Island Golf Resort Ocean Course
PGA West Stadium Course
Plum Creek Golf Club
Radrick Farms Golf Course
Wintonbury Hills Golf Course


As you'd expect, my fav's are the Ocean Course, Colleton River Plantation and Blackwolf Run River.  Being a homer I do enjoy Fowler's Mill quite a bit...more "raw" as it was some of his earlier stuff.  Gotta say, not so much a fan of Harbour Town; felt more like a glorified resort course with a really-good closing stretch 14/15 - 18.  Was also not overly impressed by PGA West Stadium as conditions were horrible the day i played it and it really detracted from the experience.  A few others have mentioned Wintonbury Hills which might fall into the "sleeper" category, but we can argue that till the cows come home.

[Rick Lane]

Haven't seen anyone mention Dye Preserve in Jupiter, Fla.  A great walk with a very good assembly of holes. 
I agree that French Lick is weird.  So weird, that the day we were there we played 36 because we just couldn't believe the place.   My favorite is actually Sawgrass.  Maybe because the holes are so familiar from TV, but I just like the choices you get on each hole....take on the hazard, get rewarded, avoid the hazard, the next shot is harder.   The shot choices are very obvious.

[George Pazin]

Haven't played here yet but Mystic Rock @ Nemacolin Woodlands in western PA is #1 public in PA and the new Shepherd's Rock there is getting rave reviews.

You should go to a lot of places before Mystic Rock. Will let you know if I ever make it to Shepherd's Rock, but I can't imagine it deserves a high spot on anyone outside of western PA's wish list.