Lido

[George_Bahto]

In a recent topic we were talking about Lido.

The subject got sidetracked a bit so if you guys don't mind I'll start another thread to clear up some of
what that course and club was about.

Lido was about a lot of things.

It was about a man’s dream, Sen. Wm. Reynolds, to make the entire stip of Long Beach Island an adult
playground (now keep your minds out of the gutter - we’re talking the 19-teens!).

He had already build Coney Island - Luna Park, the Steeplechase ride, Dreamland and all the great
things that was Coney Island as a sort of kiddie-land playground. (I this where Disney got the idea?)

On Long Beach he was going to do the same but very much more upscale.

Part of that project was the Lido Club - hotel, golf club, the course and amenities that made up that
portion of the entire project.

So the investors were found - the friends of Macdonald - the Vanderbilts, Whtneys, Otto Kahn, J P
Morgan (I think was involved also) - there were many.

Lido Club was to be an International Membership, a club that offering what no other club or course in the
world had: a world class golf course, world class hotel, world class food and amenities, world class
entertainment (imported fm NY City) but mainly something that no other club in the world (at that time
had), a world class beach (Atlantic Ocean) and it’s a good one.

So what came first - the course or Reynolds overall project? I think it was the Reynold’s plan - Lido was
just a part of it.

As for the course - unique in many ways - engineering etc - that’s a grand story in itself but to me it was
the uniqueness of the design bringing in wind and the sandy wastes - was a lot like Pine Valley and this
before PV was built. Macdonald was really only interested in building links courses. He and Raynor
seldom got the opportunity .......... this may have been the best opportunity he (they) were going to get.!
NO TREES - WIND - WASTE HAZARDS off-fairway etc.

Something else. The course was designed in reverse. Macdonald was told to “fashion” the topography on
paper and the investors would pay for filling this virtual swamp to his plans.

They knew he had hole concepts he had not used anyplace els and part of the bait for him to get involved
was that Lido would allow him to use these designs.

Then there was the hole design contest which MacKenzie won - it became #18. But there were others;
the Raynor Prize Dog-Leg, a hole called Strategy, and of course the famous Channel Hole - then they
built the Biarritz right on the beach, yet, with waves virtually lapping close to the original green. The first
three were strategies that evolved from the contest submissions.

MacKenzie hole: I can’t tell if they ever used this concept again except on the original concept drawing for
the Olympic Club (1918)

“Strategy” was used a few times - Olympic drawing and at Raynor’s first course Westhampton (Beach) C
C.. Half of the “strategy” dual-fairway concept was lost early on. I think it was planned other places but
never implemented because clubs didn’t “get it.”

“Raynor’s Prize Dog-Leg was used very often but most times clubs ended up covering the fairway
bunkers - TOO HARD ”what are those bunkers doing in the middle of the fairway?” (duh!) - WHY NOT!
Raynor liked that hole a lot and, I think tried sneaking mild versions of it on the courses.
Channel Hole: CB said it was probably the finest hole he built (designed). Most of you know Harbour
Town’s 18th ..... picture this:     drive from the back tee-box - you have two options - go around or play out
to the peninsula.  OK - visualize the following: cut off the peninsula from the mainland that portion of the
fairway is now an island; raise it 20-some-odd feet higher. You now have Calabogie Sound in front of you;
on the left side of this piece of elevated land, and on the far side also. Remember, you can’t see the
landing area straight ahead an on a direct line to the green. Where you had cut off the strip of land, have
it look like Pine Valley. Where the OB is on the right at HT, again all Pine Valley wasteland - the optional
“C” shaped fairway, the alternate and longer route, had to be played over water from the tee, had water
all along the left, all waste along the right and on the second shot (often the third shot) you had to play
over water again, then the cross bunker to a green that didn’t accept a shot well.  

They were smart enough to put the Channel Hole in the beginning of the front nine - it were late in the
round I doubt if many would have gone for the direct play to the hole. So on the Channel hole (for those
who have not seen the drawings of it) you could play around the outside a three shot hole or you could
play to the blind fairway, short the hole substantially, and perhaps reach the green in two - well near it
anyhow.

Moderate versions of his design were sort of snuck (sneaked - hah) onto some course. Harbour Town-18
is a pretty analogy (although not meant to be a copy)  is sort of a flopped over version of Channel.

There is a lot more but there is some info for starters.

gb

[Robert Kimball]

See, now this is a good example of the beauty of this web site.  

George, I have read your book a couple of times, and I believe (like Daniel Wexler) that Lido would be considered today as one of the best in the world.  What a piece of property, and I am sure that the 8th hole would be in the same breath as 5th PV, 9th Yale, 12th ANGC, and 15-16 CPGC, etc, etc.  
And, having played Harbor Town, I can relate to the 18th hole example (hell, I hit it so far right I was in some guy's bar-b-q grill) as to how Channel would have played. Maybe someone can bring up Tommy's picture of Lido superimposed on the current layout.  Great stuff.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
You said:
"They(investors) knew he had hole concepts he had not used anyplace else and part of the bait for him(CBM) to get involved was that Lido would allow him to use these designs."

Was he given a totally free hand in choosing hole types and  was he constricted to a particular area?
Was Lido the most expensive course built at that time and how much did it cost?
Was Lido the first use of Raynor's prize dog-leg? Where are the others?


 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim, You forgot to ask, "And just who did you sleep with to get this job!"

Great job Uncle George, once again like always, great job. Thanks for putting it in the seperate thread it deserves.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Kennedy:

I recall a figure of about $800,000 and none other from earlier times that exceeded that amount.

[George_Bahto]

Jimmy: 800 G's is correct for the course

From an article I found from about 1931 or 32, which lists some of the impressive membership, the following:  
" .....  a modern fireproof hotel building of four hundred rooms which was erected three years ago at a cost of $4,000,000." -what the heck does that translate to today?

Yes, the "deal" included that CB could use anything he wanted on the course. They really played on his ego to get him involved.

The Prize Dog-Leg was first used here - a result of the contest submissions. One of the most heralded use of that hole was the 9th on the Ocean Links course (NLE) in Newport. Jim, there are too many to list - Raynor plugged it in where he could - it was always one of the long (original) par-4s. It was often disguised and not recognizable because every seems to look for the dog-leg as the main feature of the design. The main architectural feature was, similar to Hell Bunker at St Andrews, a major original hazard in the second shot landing area that you either had to challenge or if you had to lay up, you were left with a 3 to 4 shot longer 3rd shot into a par-4 - this aside from a green that did not except an approach well. This hazard was usually in the form of a strip of three diagonal cross bunkers - these were what was usually removed.

I love this: Raynor called it a par-4 but a bogey six.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
If 800K is correct than the Lido course would cost about 14,544,000 of today's dollars to construct.

Tommy,
Let's see, I sleep with a babe and get a 14mil. job. NO BRAINER!!      

[JakaB]

Thank you George...

Did AP base his fabulous hole "The Gambler" found on I believe Kings North in Myrtle Beach on the option hole at The Lido...

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
I multiplied wrong. The course would cost about $8,636,256 to build, the hotel around $43,181,280, in today's dollars.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Kennedy:

I don't have handy the formula for calculating dollars of the day to current dollars, but your number suggests Cypress Point was built for numbers comparable to Sand Hills - around $1 million. Interesting.

Strickly applying the formula might, however, obscure project costs that have increased at a rate faster than overall inflation, e.g., permitting costs. My understanding is that those costs alone for Friar's Head exceeded what Cypress Point Club paid to construct their course.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

JakaB,
No, He was inspired to build the Gambler after looking at a slice of swiss cheese, and saw the mass pattern of pot bunkers in the cheese itself.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
It really doesn't matter whether it costs more for permitting or not, the formula stays the same over the costs associated to build, no matter their allocation. If sandhills cost 1mil. to build it would cost about 93k in 1928. If it cost 100k to build the course and 900k to irrigate it, as has been said, then it would have only cost 9,300 bucks to build Sandhills in '28, sans irrigation.

This is only matching dollars to dollars, it's debatable whether a course like Lido would even be possible today.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jim Kennedy,

I agree with you that something like the Lido might not even be possible to permit today.

My point on the permitting issues is that we sometimes casually throw around figures about what it costs to build a golf course without being clear whether they are all inclusive or just part of the overall project.

From what I know of the Cypress Point project, $150,000 was budgeted for actual course construction and Mackenzie took pride coming in well under that figure. But, there were other costs: an equal figure budgeted for land acquisition and clubhouse construction. Beyond that, $50,000 was budgeted for other items.

I have no idea what the permtting process was like at the time or even if there was one. Presumably, however, such expenses were covered under the budget for other items. Just my guess.

It is interesting to note that even if the entire budget for other items was spent on permitting - an unlikely prospect - it still would be a figure significantly less than the course construction expense. That's where a comparison of different projects can get interesting, e.g, modern day Friar's Head costing more to permit than either classic era Cypress Point or modern day Sand Hills to construct.

If you are interested, the Fazio book has a table that breaks down the evolution of course construction costs from the 1950s until the 1990s. I have not studied the figures, but the rate of increase varies by line item and overall it would appear that costs have increased much faster than inflation, thanks in part to different - perceived or actual - requirements to build a course.