[Thomas Dai]

Recently I was fortunate to play in a competition at delightful Southerndown in South Wales. Cracking course a real favourite of mine.

There was a gale blowing from the prevailing south west direction, 4-5 clubs in strength, trolleys rolling without the hand of man, hats blowing off, balls oscillating on the greens/tee-pegs....you know the kind of day. Big field yet no-one played to their posted handicap. No-one.

On several of the into the wind holes many players were struggling to reach the fairways and balls were curving in all directions and folk looking for balls all over the place.

It seemed to me that it was a day for moving the tees way, way up on some of the into the wind holes to avoid delays and speed up play and reduce general hassle.

But when you're already playing from the yellows and the ladies/reds aren't that much further forward where do you move forward too?

There is often criticism herein of courses with "too many" sets of tees. Is there justification though, on known windy courses, for having an extra set or two of small tees way, way forward to allow for the circumstances described above?

I can't imagine many folk like looking for balls when the wind is such that they can't reach the fairway from the regulation tee even with their Sunday Best.

Thoughts?

Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Suck it up, man! 


That's one of the things I like best about the courses in the UK.  If the wind's up, it's going to be tough, and you have to deal with it; the greenkeeper isn't going to make it all better.  By the same token, the courses are designed to be played in the wind, so it's not like you face impossible shots into the greens from too far back ... just difficult ones.


I'm not saying you should never move a tee up if it requires too big a carry, but the idea that every course should be designed with extra tees for that purpose just guarantees that no one will ever have to face adversity.  And that is not the spirit of golf.

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,


I am sure Southerndown experience many such a day so would think if it is not a problem for the members. I suspect that the comp did not affect handicaps.


I agree that it is important that the course remain playable for all though.


Jon

[Rob Marshall]

Suck it up, man! 


That's one of the things I like best about the courses in the UK.  If the wind's up, it's going to be tough, and you have to deal with it; the greenkeeper isn't going to make it all better.  By the same token, the courses are designed to be played in the wind, so it's not like you face impossible shots into the greens from too far back ... just difficult ones.


I'm not saying you should never move a tee up if it requires too big a carry, but the idea that every course should be designed with extra tees for that purpose just guarantees that no one will ever have to face adversity.  And that is not the spirit of golf.

Tom, do you include the clubs in Ireland? I thought courses like Royal Portrush and Lahinch were pretty tight. When played in a good wind.

[Thomas Dai]

Tom,

Myself I'm quite happy playing in a gale, quite like it actually, nice challenge. You don't play links golf 12 months p/a for decades without being able to deal with it!

I don't disagree with your last sentence......

But I'm trying to look at it from a bigger perspective, architecturally/positioning/angles as well, that of amateur competitive handicap golf when many in the field are struggling and others are waiting on tees and fairways while groups in front continuously search for balls. I doubt anyone really likes this, even the hardiest. Amateur handicap golf is surely supposed in the first instance to be enjoyable and fun. Is there anyone who actually likes slow play?

I had a similar experiences to that mentioned in my opening post in a multi-round event a few years ago. A gale blew for a couple of days at delightful Aberdovey. The tees on the 11th on the earlier day were positioned such that most of the field couldn't reach the fairway from the tee. Balls were lost, groups backed-up and the players were on th course for close to 5 hours. Next day same conditions, but the lesson had been learnt and the tees where moved way forward. Few lost balls, no delays and 4 hour rounds.

I have also seen tees built further back but no scrub cleared out to allow more width for wayward tee shots in adverse conditions. A recipe for slow play surely.

Tees are moved up for the folks we watch on TV. Why not do so occasionally in appropriate circumstances and on known windy courses for Joe Amateur as well utilising either small purpose-built upfront teeing areas or even tee markers on flat areas of fairway?

Jon,

Quite right, although I imagine that members hips will reflect this, with a dose of 'reductions only' events thrown into the hat. Mr Visitor though, whose hcp is likely based on his performances on his home probably inland parkland cours wouldn't be my choice as the player most likely to be going home with a prize in such weather conditions! Hom or similar course player would be who my money would be on.

Atb

[RJ_Daley]

I had a similar experiences to that mentioned in my opening post in a multi-round event a few years ago. A gale blew for a couple of days at delightful Aberdovey. The tees on the 11th on the earlier day were positioned such that most of the field couldn't reach the fairway from the tee. Balls were lost, groups backed-up and the players were on th course for close to 5 hours. Next day same conditions, but the lesson had been learnt and the tees where moved way forward. Few lost balls, no delays and 4 hour rounds.


I agree, Dave.  As for just playing with friends, I enjoy playing in Nebraska winds with friends and deciding hole by hole due to wind conditions, which can be significant, to pick our tees accordingly as we go through the round.  Most of the Nebraska courses have enough tee placement flexibility to handle the winds of the day. 

Last year I played several days in the most extreme winds I ever experiences, and sustained.  Port Salon, Cruit Island and Portnoo to name a few.  I see nothing wrong with moving to the ladies on a couple of those into wind holes, and back to tips on the downwinders.   If you are playing with friends.... so what, make it fun and maybe avoid a time wasting search. 

[Tom_Doak]

I was thinking more along the lines of making the approach shots playable.  If the course is too narrow off the tee for a windy day, there are other ways to fix that besides moving everybody up!

[Ally Mcintosh]

David,


I know where you're coming from. I was alongside friends playing a singles match in a gale at Enniscrone a couple of years ago. Both had hit 9 off the tee (5 balls each) without reaching the fairway before I called time and suggested that it was likely they would locate at least one ball per head. Hole was won in 11.

[Thomas Dai]

Ally,
A challenge is one thing but as you imply, no fun with this kind of scenario even in a friendly/fun bounce gam. And in a formal amateur handicap competition, especially medal (i.e. not stabkeforstableford or better-ball) it can be vile. Groups backing up everywhere.


All,
The question is though should there be formal way, way up front tees on nowt windy courses for occasional use to allievate matters?


Atb

[Peter Pallotta]

ATB - I'm torn. You make a compelling case/paint a clear picture: the tournament you describe doesn't seem to have provided much enjoyment. But on the other hand, there's the spirit of golf (to either embrace or to ignore). Others will disagree with me, but a special set of tees for such instances doesn't seem much different than the practice (that many here engage in) of playing a mixed-set of tees during a single round - ie moving from blues to whites (or whites to yellow) and back again as they deem fit and as the wind conditions suggest. They call it "fun" and in one sense I agree; but to me that is no more aligned with the spirit of golf as is the suggestion of a special set of tees. The only difference is that the latter approach is more permanent and 'official' -- a concrete expression of a disregard for the very notion that golf has an essential/fundamental spirit.

[Jon Wiggett]

All,
The question is though should there be formal way, way up front tees on nowt windy courses for occasional use to allievate matters?


Atb

Thomas,


again, the answer is to make the hole playable from the existing tees in these conditions. If it is not then it is poor design. I once had the case in a PGA playing ability test where it was impossible for me to clear the water and reach the fairway into a strong wind on the last at the Belfry. I had to hit a short pitch shot to the ladies tee from where a 4 iron, 9 iron and 2 putts saw me pass by 1 shot. Difficult but playable.


Jon


Jon

[Rob Marshall]

All,
The question is though should there be formal way, way up front tees on nowt windy courses for occasional use to allievate matters?


Atb

Thomas,


again, the answer is to make the hole playable from the existing tees in these conditions. If it is not then it is poor design. I once had the case in a PGA playing ability test where it was impossible for me to clear the water and reach the fairway into a strong wind on the last at the Belfry. I had to hit a short pitch shot to the ladies tee from where a 4 iron, 9 iron and 2 putts saw me pass by 1 shot. Difficult but playable.


Jon


Jon

Jon, then every hole is always playable.

[Thomas Dai]

All,
The question is though should there be formal way, way up front tees on nowt windy courses for occasional use to allievate matters?
Atb

Thomas,
again, the answer is to make the hole playable from the existing tees in these conditions. If it is not then it is poor design. I once had the case in a PGA playing ability test where it was impossible for me to clear the water and reach the fairway into a strong wind on the last at the Belfry. I had to hit a short pitch shot to the ladies tee from where a 4 iron, 9 iron and 2 putts saw me pass by 1 shot. Difficult but playable.
Jon
Jon

Jon, then every hole is always playable.

What would be the suggestions to allow for shorter drives into occasional gale force against conditions? Would it be more width in the possible driving area, removal of any forced carries, .........?
And would the one-time and then ongoing maintenance aspects and costs of such be greater than those incurred in building/maintaining a small tee way, way further up the fairway?
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Rob,


no not at all but every hole should be always playable.


Thomas,


my point is that if you build a hole that is playable in even strong wind conditions then you do not need forward tees. Where for me your argument falls on its face is that on the one hand you suggest that holes played into a strong headwind be shortened yet no mention of lengthening the downwind ones nor widening the crosswind holes. What do you do if the weather is good in the morning but bad in the afternoon? Make the course playable regardless of the conditions is surely the answer.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Jon,
As I guess you appreciate I am attempting to play a slight devils advocate here so different ideas and comments are very welcome. Open debate and criticism helps my learning curve!
Your point about pushing the tees back in such conditions (if teeing ground space is available) on downwind holes is very valid. Indeed I wouldn't have an issue with this approach. On the same day I highlighted in my initial post the par-5's were playing straight downwind and were very much pick-up holes, although still not sufficient of a pick-up to compensate for the difficulty of the wind-against holes!
One matter to I imagine consider though would be the frequency of strong wind direction.
Space on cross-wind and diagonal-wind holes is another interesting aspect although one I presume comes with ongoing maintenance time and cost implications.
Atb

[Sean_A]

David,


I know where you're coming from. I was alongside friends playing a singles match in a gale at Enniscrone a couple of years ago. Both had hit 9 off the tee (5 balls each) without reaching the fairway before I called time and suggested that it was likely they would locate at least one ball per head. Hole was won in 11.

I might suggest that nothing about course design or set up should be predicated upon gale like wind. Sometimes it is wise not to play.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I might suggest that nothing about course design or set up should be predicated upon gale like wind. Sometimes it is wise not to play.

One of the best things anybody ever said to me about architecture was that if you built a course so that pros could play it even in a gale, it would also be playable for the average player nearly all the time.  [Ben Crenshaw said it.]

[Sean_A]

I might suggest that nothing about course design or set up should be predicated upon gale like wind. Sometimes it is wise not to play.

One of the best things anybody ever said to me about architecture was that if you built a course so that pros could play it even in a gale, it would also be playable for the average player nearly all the time.  [Ben Crenshaw said it.]

I am sure that could be the case. But the truth is, no matter how you build it, someone will narrow it down eventually...perhaps sometimes to improve the course. Acres of short grass is simply too expensive for a significant percentage of clubs.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Sheep for width? Whoops, it was a game in a gale at Southerndown that inspired this thread and Southerndown has sheep on the course!
Sheep don't seem to eat ferns and bracken and gorse though.....but goats do!
atb

[Garland Bayley]

...
There is often criticism herein of courses with "too many" sets of tees. Is there justification though, on known windy courses, for having an extra set or two of small tees way, way forward to allow for the circumstances described above?
...

There is also criticism here of forced carries.

[Ken Moum]

I was thinking more along the lines of making the approach shots playable.  If the course is too narrow off the tee for a windy day, there are other ways to fix that besides moving everybody up!

There certainly are other options, but as I noted in my post on another thread about playing Cruden Bay from the medal tees in competition last week, beginning on the 4th tee, I was faced with several holes that I had virtually no chance of making it to the fairway. And the balls that didn't weren't in playable rough, they were in knee-high grass and gorse. I lost at least a half dozen balls.


If it hadn't been a greensomes, I would have probably lost more than a dozen balls and ultimately been unable to finish the round. Is that really the goal of holding a competition?


I'm a short-hitting 17 handicap with a pretty good short game, who will be 70 in a couple of weeks.


And that day at Cruden Bay had me hating the place.


Is THAT what anyone wants to see?

[Thomas Dai]

Is THAT what anyone wants to see?

Go along with you Ken. There comes a point when things cease to be fun and unless your playing to pay the mortgage/feed the family etc or work in the business it's your leisure time and when your leisure pastime ceases to be fun there's a pretty good chance you'll go and find another pastime and one less person will then be contributing to overall money flow within golf.
And CB in particular in such conditions can be an evil beast. I walked in from the 6th or jumped across from 7 to 17 a few times during my years there. Not the only one to do so either.
atb


PS - the 4th at Cruden Bay - at one time I recall a tee-mat placed on a small metal plinth installed on/near the path running up the right side of the hole. It would have been about 120 yds from the green and for occasional use. It had no effect on the majority of players nor on the view but for those who were struggling with the carry distance or in an evil headwind it was a godsend. It was only there for a couple of years though.

[Kalen Braley]

This reminds me of a time years ago when we played poor mans pebble, Pacific Grove.


The wind was whipping something fierce, and we at least had some relief on the front 9.  But when we stepped on 11 tee, it was punching us head on.  4 of us hit tee balls with maybe only 90-100 yards to carry the junk to the fairway.  We went 0 for 4 with two balls starting to go backwards by the time they landed in the crap.  It was so bad all we could do was laugh....

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