News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« on: August 10, 2017, 10:21:57 PM »
I apologize if an existing thread details these changes: I can't seem to use the search thread. I remember a post regarding the Scottish Open but I don't recall specific mention of the drastic changes now proposed!!!

I am particularly distresses by a complete revision to the 14th and abandoning the 15th. I have the report and if this needs further detailing  and won't be me rehashing old news I am glad to respond
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 10:32:41 PM »
1. The STRI Report of November 2016 made it abundantly clear that the 8th green has to move into the winter light for it to thrive as the other greens are. That forces the 8th green to move, shortening the hole to become a par 3.
2. With the 8th becoming a par 3, a shot to par is lost which needs to be regained in order to keep the par at 70. That cannot be done on the front nine and the only way to do it on the back nine is to extend the 14th to become a par 5 and to drop out the 15th.
3. The 19th hole will become the new 13th to replace the current 15th. With a new green, this will add variety to the par three set and can be a strong addition to the course.
4. The extended 14th becomes the 15th hole. The teeshot remains largely the same except that the large bulge that encroaches into the drive will be removed so that the fairway is much more visible from the tee, which is currently a problem area in any case.
5. The new 15th green will be level with the Green Tee on the present 15th hole. The new green will be raised by 2m and the Green Tee and dune lowered to the same level.
6. The maintenance path left of the present 14th green will be removed and taken along the coast to connect up with the present path up towards the tee.
7. That same path will be significantly re-aligned in the area of the 8th and 16th holes to remove traffic from areas of play on these holes. Golfers will also be encouraged to use this route coming from the 16th green to avoid them walking across the line of play on the 8th which is a poor feature.
8. The result of this is that the length of the course is maintained and the par stays at 70. The nines are equal and 35 apiece, although the back nine has three par 3s and 2 par 5s. It is about 300 yards shorter as a result, but that is better than the current imbalance of length and par.
9. The 18th is a separate project. The present teeshot is particularly unattractive and lets the whole course down. It is both feasible and beneficial to re-align the teeshot so that the hole plays as a dogleg left to right. This removes the fence from view and with low dunes, the road and paths are also concealed.
10. The revised 18th will be much more appealing visually with the clubhouse as a backdrop and a far better driving hole, asking all players to make decisions on what line they are to take from the tee.

They are seeking comment from members. I would love to see what you guys think and incorporate into a response. I am distressed especially about Holes 14&15
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 01:22:54 AM »

Is the quality of the 8th green so bad as to make it unplayable??? I certainly have never noticed this. Still, why not mess about altering this unique course to make it conform. I am sure those proposing the changes will say it makes it a better course but will it be as interesting and fun? I think not.


Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 01:31:34 AM »
I am confused about the 18th as well.  It is a legger right now with the prime position being on the left, high side of the fairway.  To me, its a very good driving hole with a clear advantage for one side or the other of the fairway but as you say, not very attractive. 

Its a shame to lose the 14th.  Its a nightmare to lose the 8th.  Are the changes just to get the Scottish Open?

Back to back par 5s in 14 & 15?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 04:08:15 AM »
Move the 8th green into the winter light for the green to thrive?
How long has it been there?
Is there more winter play now....winter in NE Scotland....or is this the "don't walk on a semi-frosted green" brigade moving their thinking northwards?
Didn't they re-do the green a couple of years ago?
A cynic might be inclined to wonder if they got it wrong and moving it's a political move to avoid embarrassment?
Simpson must be rolling over in his grave.
Atb

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 04:52:25 AM »
Love the 8th.  I believe the green was originally placed higher up the dune by Simpson, but it was washed away and rebuilt?I wonder if they thought about rebuilding it higher with today’s technology?  Would it get more light higher up?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 05:15:50 AM »
Ward,

[/size]Shocking news but I'm not surprised. Many members have always really disliked playing hole 15 on a daily basis. What the visitors love, the quirk, is tiring for the members.The club has for a long time being trying to change holes 14-16, it was the reason I first got involved with Cruden Bay as a member back in 2006. The club now seems to have found another reason why they need to get rid of 15, and to be honest the argument is pretty farfetched. It seems to go as follows: because the green of hole 8 gets to much shadow in winter we need to move it (why doesn't green 11 have the same issue?), therefore hole 8 will become a par 3 (why can't the tees be moved back, there is enough space), therefore the par goes to 69 which is unacceptable (WHY, whats wrong with Swinley Forest?), therefore we need to find another stroke which is only possible by turning hole 14 into a par 5 (not true, hole 9 can also quite easily be turned into a par 5, I even proposed that when I worked with the club), and therefore we lose hole 15 which will be replaced by the spare par 3 hole.Ironically most members do not play hole 8 in winter, they play the 9 holes loop of holes 1-7 and 17-18....I will post my correspondence with the greens committee from that time, I think you and the others here will find it interesting....

« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:28:15 AM by Frank Pont »

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 05:26:41 AM »
Ward,

Shocking news but I'm not surprised. Many members have always really disliked playing hole 15 on a daily basis. What the visitors love, the quirk, is tiring for the members.

The club has for a long time being trying to change holes 14-16, it was the reason I first got involved with Cruden Bay as a member back in 2006.

The club now seems to have found another reason why they need to get rid of 15, and to be honest the argument is pretty farfetched. It seems to go as follows: because the green of hole 8 gets to much shadow in winter we need to move it (why doesn't green 11 have the same issue?), therefore hole 8 will become a par 3 (why can't the tees be moved back, there is enough space), therefore the par goes to 69 which is unacceptable (WHY, whats wrong with Swinley Forest?), therefore we need to find another stroke which is only possible by turning hole 14 into a par 5 (not true, hole 9 can also quite easily be turned into a par 5, I even proposed that when I worked with the club), and therefore we lose hole 15 which will be replaced by the spare par 3 hole.

Ironically most members do not play hole 8 in winter, they play the 9 holes loop of holes 1-7 and 17-18....

I will post my correspondence with the greens committee from that time, I think you and the others here will find it interesting....

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 05:32:53 AM »
Ward,

Shocking news but I'm not surprised. Many members have always really disliked playing hole 15 on a daily basis. What the visitors love, the quirk, is tiring for the members.

The club has for a long time being trying to change holes 14-16, it was the reason I first got involved with Cruden Bay as a member back in 2006.

The club now seems to have found another reason why they need to get rid of 15, and to be honest the argument is pretty farfetched. It seems to go as follows: because the green of hole 8 gets to much shadow in winter we need to move it (why doesn't green 11 have the same issue?), therefore hole 8 will become a par 3 (why can't the tees be moved back, there is enough space), therefore the par goes to 69 which is unacceptable (WHY, whats wrong with Swinley Forest?), therefore we need to find another stroke which is only possible by turning hole 14 into a par 5 (not true, hole 9 can also quite easily be turned into a par 5, I even proposed that when I worked with the club), and therefore we lose hole 15 which will be replaced by the spare par 3 hole.

Ironically most members do not play hole 8 in winter, they play the 9 holes loop of holes 1-7 and 17-18....

I will post my correspondence with the greens committee from that time, I think you and the others here will find it interesting....

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 05:42:28 AM »

Amsterdam March 19 2006

Dear ....., (name omitted for privacy reasons)

I am writing you both as an overseas member of Cruden Bay, and as a golf course architect who has specialised in restoring the historic designs of Harry Colt and Tom Simpson.

I was very pleased to read in the last Greens Report that you are making a big effort to bring back the native links fescue grasses back to Cruden Bay and with it less need for water, fertilisers and pesticides and maybe even more important a return to the true links colours and firm playing conditions. Similar efforts are underway on some of the continental classical courses with encouraging results. Please keep up the good work!

Unfortunately I have to tell you I am far less positive about the proposed changes to the golf course I read further on in the report.

Cruden Bay is very famous in the golf world for its routing and for a number of its rather unorthodox characteristics. This and the fact that virtually al the holes are very good, distinct and strategic has secured Cruden a well earned place in the Worlds top 100 courses for many years.

Of course even a superb golf course such as Cruden needs to be improved or restored at certain times. However at these moments, one should not lose out of sight that one is altering a monument designed by Tom Simpson, one of the best golf architects that has ever worked in this profession. When I restore classic courses such as Royal Hague, Kennemer and Eindhoven (all Colt) I use great restraint and try hard not to change the routing, the strategy of holes and, even more important, the greens unless it is absolutely unavoidable.

Therefore I was rather shocked to see the Greens Committee are considering changing some of the best and most characteristic holes and greens at Cruden Bay.

Going through the proposed changes:

• The 4th hole as it currently plays is one of the best- and most beautiful par 3’s I know in Golf. Having been educated as an Civil Engineer I cannot imagine the costs of securing the medal tee against erosion are so large as to necessitate a redesign of this fantastic hole. Rather taking a second more detailed look for economic ways to secure the current layout of the hole seems the desired action here.

• The area behind the 12th hole is indeed fantastic links land and, given that the club owns the land, adding a par 3 there is indeed a good idea. However I do not understand why one therefore have to take the current 15th hole out of play. This hole is together with the Dell at Lahinch one of the few and most famous blind par 3 holes in the world, and has been the highlight of the round for many past and present visitors to Cruden. Rather I would suggest that the new par 3 hole is used as a substitute par 3 hole at times when another hole is under maintenance. This principle of a 19th hole is being used on many courses with great success. Also members who do not like playing the current 15th (I understood this to be a key factor) can play this substitute hole….

• Hole 14 is unique because it is narrow and blind all the way to the quirky bathtub green. Eliminating some of the blindness is like being half pregnant; it is either all or nothing. The green is either visible or not, and to make the green visible would either mean moving it or cutting a significant amount of earth at the front of the green. Both would actions would significantly damage the historic value, eccentricity and uniqueness of the hole.

• The 16th hole is a par 3 that requires a very accurate tee shot to keep the ball on the green. In most cases, when playing with a tailwind, the ball needs to land before the green on the fore green to have a chance of staying on the green. If not you are left, as you probably know better than me, with a delicate chip/put back to the green from one of the hollows behind the green. In my view the hole already is FAIR to a good golf shot; the only point is that the good golf shot just has to be very accurate. I find this one of the most exciting shots I have played on par 3 holes. Moving the green because of fairness in my view would be a serious mistake.

• Finally I do not really see the need for lengthening hole 8. Part of its charm is the strong temptation to try to drive the green, something that in most situations is a rather unwise thing to do. Take this temptation away by moving the tee back and you take this (strategic) option away from the player thereby transform the hole transforms into a rather tame short par 4.


As you see from my comments above, I unfortunately find very few points of the plan are worth supporting.

In my view Cruden Bay can be further improved in certain places, however not on the holes proposed. Rather holes 9, 10, 12 and 18 (in decreasing order) in my view are the least good holes on the course. Especially hole 9 is dull, long and lacks strategy and can (and maybe therefore should) be improved dramatically.

I understand that giving a written critique on the plan is maybe not the most elegant, effective or constructive way to discuss these matters. I would have preferred to have given you these points personally on the course or over a pint in the clubhouse, but that is difficult given that I reside in Amsterdam.

However I find this matter of such importance that I am more than happy to make the trip to Cruden Bay over a weekend in the near future to discuss matters with you and the Greens Committee should this be of any interest to you. Be aware that, as a matter of principle, I do not charge clubs that I am a member of a fee for my advice.

In the hope this letter has been of some help to you,

With kind regards


Frank Pont

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 06:05:24 AM »

Dear Frank, hello.

I have just recently received the letter you sent to me via Cruden Bay Golf Club with respect to the course
improvements and modifications. I am glad that you have taken the time to express your opinions as this is very
much appreciated. As you can understand I was not aware that we had a golf architect in the membership or I would
have been in contact at an earlier date. I apologise now if I miss quote you as I have left your letter at work – and I
have time just now to respond to you.

Firstly let me re-assure you that no changes will be undertaken without a) the utmost regard for protection of the
historic significance of the course b) the consent of the membership on a large and c) without consultation
with some of the leading architects currently in the field.

I am not at all surprised by the opinions expressed in your letter, as I have always felt that there would be two very
opposing groups with regards to the holes in question at Cruden Bay ie those who love 14/15 and those who
don't.’When I first started identifying possible changes at CB I thought that there would be more resistance from
within the club than I am hearing at the moment – but rather it is the opposite – members are quite keen on change. I
cannot validate this - just what I hear. Reading comments on Golf Club Atlas only confirms that there are two very
opposing opinions – so it is very difficult to come up with ‘correct’ answers if there is one.

My only remit – if there is one – is to take Cruden Bay forward – if we think that any changes will not do this then it
will not happen. What I do believe is that courses should evolve – the course which everybody visits now has had
many changes to the one which Simpson/Fowler redesigned in the 1920’s. And yet Cruden Bay has only become
world famous in the last 20 years or so in comparison. And I also believe that if there is a possibility to improve
holes whilst we are in a strong financial position (fyi temporary membership means green fees not country
members!) then this opportunity should be looked.

So first question why were these holes looked at. Well contrary to your post on GCA – it was not ...... who
suggested these holes. His remit was to look at modification proposal which I put together last year and posted via
the European Golf Institute of Architecture. Then from the interested parties we picked .... to advise us on the
proposals for a number of reasons.

I have attached a copy of the course modifcation document – which is confidential and I ask that you treat it in such
manner. In the following I will go into the proposed changes in much more detail. Following perhaps best read after
reading proposal document

4th hole

This hole was asked to be looked at because about 3 years ago now, an engineering consultant was asked to look at a
number of erosion/drainage problems at Cruden Bay. The advice coming out of this was that the 4th tee was in
significant danger of being lost sometime in the near future due to the river under cutting the embankment.
Accordingly £50K was budgeted to remedy this problem. A large sum of money, if you consider this may be
a perpetual solution. It does seem however that following the embankment work done a few years ago that the
erosion problem has moved a bit up stream – hopefully this will never threaten the 3rd hole however.
Furthermore in consideration of this hole, I will remind you that the green where it is presently located was never
designed to be receiving a shot from a distance of 190yds. The green was originally played from the forward
tee only with the 'back' tee being a quite recent addition. So it could be argued that whilst the hole provides a
beautiful setting - the green is not ideally shaped for the shot required. If you consider what I think represents 'a
good links par three' (think Muirfield/Dornoch for examples) ultimately the green will be designed to be receptive
for the length of shot required (if hit straight). This may be well remembered when I move on to discuss the 15th &
16th. So this was why the 4th hole was asked to be looked at - but it was never top of the list. I know that golfers hit
the ball further than they used to 70 years ago – but for the majority of members a 3iron/wood approach to this
target is pretty difficult. Again the suggestion is the green is not ideally shaped – something which is often
overlooked.

15th Hole

I could not agree with you more when you say that the 15th hole has been the highlight of the round for many past
and present visitors to the club. However I would suggest that it is the highlight for the wrong reasons -
maybe even being remembered for the 'wrong reasons'. Blindness for me is not this issue here. I can think of plenty
great holes which are blind at Prestwick Old, Carne & Enniscrone in Ireland (unfortunately I haven't played Lahinch
Undoubtedly it is a bad golf hole – liken this to Tom Simpsons comments about the 17th at Prestwick and the fact
that it is of a length which he never endorsed worthy of being a par 3. If the existing back tee was ever used back in
1920’s 30’s then it would certainly not have been a par 3. Does this mean that we should move the tee forward?
Well possible, but would make a very boring par 3. And this is a comment I have read on GCA – better a quirky bad
hole than a mundane poor hole – I could not agree more.

Another reason why the 15th is a poor hole at Cruden Bay is because of the effect it has on the pace of play on the
golf course. Very frequently there are 3/ 4 groups of players backed up on the tee creating log jam.
But yes the 15th hole is very memorable and this is certainly not forgotten

14th hole

The most important thing for me is that the 14th hole could be afantastic golf hole. By this I mean that it has possibly one of the best tee shots on the golf course / or it will have once we push the existing tee back 40 yards to make the bunkers on the left the line off the tee. Think of the 9th at Royal Aberdeen and you’ll see what I mean. Unfortunately the 14th green is a poor approach shot. Possibly this hole was designed with the intention of a shot being played to land short of the pole at the top of the hill and then rolling down to the green – this would make sense for having the bunker at the top of the hill. Although as I’m sure your are aware T.Simpson was very much of the mind that bunkers were intended to offer a route of play more than a punishment. Whilst on the subject of bunkers (as someone pointed out on the GCA boards) – I would like to see the
bunkers re-instated at the 7th hole - because they were probably the most strategically placed bunkers on the
course… another story. But this is not the case anymore – play to this green is straight over the marker onto the
green - and this is a complete lottery. Playing this hole often you would realise that the same shot can end up in
completely different places each time.

Anyway the proposal to look at this hole was with a view to improving it if possible – if the 15th were to be taken
out of play – because the 15th tee would not be in the way and possibility to move the green back accordingly. I am
not going to address any of the issues that might arise with doing such a modification. All I will say is that I am
firmly of the opinion that if a suitable design could not be found to the problems which improved the hole as it
stands then again it will not be done. As you suggest a design which is not one thing or the other is not a good idea –
but I can envisage massive change here – just not sure who can have the ‘balls’ / imagination to come up with the
solution.

16th hole.

Fortunately (or unfort) I remember some of your thoughts regarding this hole. And I cannot concur with them. This
hole has become something of a joke in the last few years, and whether this is due to the change in golf ball /
equipment / or the ground conditions I’m not sure. I can assure you that in anything other than a opposing wind –
this green is virtually impossible to hit. And fairness aside this is not something which I like to associate with a golf
course which calls itself a championship course. The golf ball – 80% of the time if hit over the rise short of the green
will fall off the back of the green – and if hit short of the rise will remain short.

I do think that there is opportunity here to improve the hole by building a new green just to the right of the exisiting
green – possibly further back. One this moves the green away from the toilet and secondly from the path of any stray
tee shot which may come from a new tee on the 8th. Which again I’ll address as I mention it. I have heard that a new
tee at the 8th is not a good idea because the front tee promotes the use of a driver to go for the green. Yes but not for
the better level of player – who can hit a driver more than 250yds and that is not exactly long these days.
Again if the 15th were to be replaced with a new par 3 – there is possibility to construct a new 16th tee further back
and round the hill slightly which would make the tee shot to 16 more challenging.

So a bit like 14 and 15 – we have a quirky hole which is also quite a bad hole. Or at least a poor par3
Unfortunately I believe that the fact we have 3 very poor holes (golfing wise) in a row there is a cumulative effect in
the minds of some people. If the 15th were on it’s own then perhaps it would not seem as bad (to those who think it’
bad!) or perhaps if the 14th / 16th were better holes then the 15th would be more acceptable.
So there are a few of my thoughts on the proposals.

After discussion with the greens committee late last week and following a council meeting last night, I can advise
you that the club has decided the following decisions at the moment.

Firstly to look at possible extension to the green on the left hand side of the 4th green – and moving the front left
bunker slightly more central and forward. Although there would be a proviso here that we could find a solution to
the sand blow problem which currently affects the left hand side of the green – which may be difficult.
Secondly redesign of the 16th hole as I have said above.

At present the 14th and 15th hole are to remain as they are – with the exception of the path at 15 which will be
returfed – as the brick path detracts from both play and sight.

New par three at the rear of the golf course is to be put on hold. Problem I see now is that members will wonder
why we are not changing the 15th – but I having listened / read many opinions I can see both sides.


Moving onward, I see many opportunities / options to improve the golf course. Most pressingly is the need to
reshape the 9th hole. ... has suggested moving the fairway 20yds left here (there is plenty room & it may open up
views to the sea) and planting bushes up the right hand side. I would see the tee shot as being something like the 6th
at Carnoustie with bunkering in the fairway and a small avenue up the left hand side if you were brave enough
leaving an ‘easier approach to the green’ or if you play conservatively up short of the bunkers – leaving a long shot
into the green. One possible option.

Another possible opportunity – having looked at land where a new par three could be built – it really would be a
fantastic looking hole playing towards the rocks/sea – is to take the 11th hole out of play and replace it with a new
par 3 a hole later. This would allow 10 to be improved and possibly a new tee put in further back at 12 – although
this would take the green out of play.

So there are a few thoughts and a brief update on the situation at the moment. I apologise for the length, I’m
passionate about the golf course (and golf design in general) and for the lack of structure later on – writing as I
think!

I’ll finish off there. Thank you again for your letter, I hope that I have alleviated some of your concerns at this time.
Although I’m not sure that is possible. In closing I would say that I/we are very interested in keeping open
communication with yourself on the proposed changes. I hesitate at this stage to get you more closely involved
because of the fact you are a member – but your opinion will and has been listened to.


Best regards in the meantime.


....... (this name and other names omitted for privacy reasons)


Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2017, 06:16:40 AM »
Amsterdam April 17 2006


Dear ......,


Thanks for your extensive reply of April 11th, which gave me better insight
into the reasons why you are proposing to make the changes to Cruden Bay.
This might be a long letter so please take a comfortable seat before starting
to read it.

Before getting into the hole by hole discussion there are three important
general points I would like to make:

Firstly, what I miss in the approach of your club is a clearly spelled out long
term strategy. Somewhere in the beginning of your letter you write that
your “only remit is to take Cruden Bay forward”. However it never becomes
clear what this “forward” entails. When I work with historic clubs like
Cruden Bay, the first thing we do is define a short and concise 10 year plan.
In it we put forward the 3-5 key elements the club is trying to achieve with
the golf course in the next 10 years. Typically the document makes
statements about protecting the historic architecture, the natural
environment, making the course more strategic and enjoyable for the
majority of players whilst ensuring it remains a stern test for the best
players. It also states how trade offs between these goals should be made.
For example, if it is impossible to both keep the historic architecture and
provide a stern test for the best players then the historic architecture is
more important. Such a 10 year plan is extremely important because it gives
stability to the progress of the club and avoids the problem of consecutive
greens committees making opportunistic or unstructured changes.

The next step would then be to have the golf architect draw up a plan for
the course based on this 10 year plan, and not the greens committee.
Greens committees often are comprised of smart and ambitious people and
some very good golfers who have seen many famous links courses.


However that does not make them a good golf course architect, or as the
famous Bobby Jones stated:


“No man learns to design a golf course simply by playing golf, no matter
how well”.


The architect should take as the basis for his analysis the problems of the
course (eg. back up of people at the tee of the 15th hole), and not any
specific solutions proposed by the club.


Secondly on the issue of changes to the greens of Cruden Bay. I am sure your
comment that the course has had many changes made to it since Simpson
redesigned it in the 1920’s is very true. However, how many greens or green
sites were moved or significantly changed? I bet very few if any. The reason
for that is clear, namely that greens are the highest form of artistry of an
golf architect, or as Charles Blair McDonald once said:


“Putting greens to a golf course are what the face is to a portrait”.


Given that Simpson was one of the best architects who ever lived and
Cruden was among his best work, one could safely assume his greens are
definitely worth preserving. I do not know of a top quality restoring golf
architect who does not seek out all other possible avenues of change before
deciding to change a green by the likes of Colt, McKenzie and Simpson.
Therefore I was- and am shocked you are seriously contemplating to
completely change 4 of his 18 greens. Especially so since I am sure it is
possible to make certain improvements to the course without losing these
greens.


Thirdly on the subject of fairness, an issue that comes around a number of
times as the main reason for changing holes at Cruden, I would like to quote
HN Wethered, the writing partner of Tom Simpson:


“The chief virtues of the links may briefly be summarized as being: first,
that they should be difficult; secondly, that they should be pleasing to the
eye; thirdly, that they should be strictly economical in design; and lastly,
to be truly admirable they will probably incur in the general opinion the
accusation of being unfair”


I also strongly recommend you carefully read chapter 4 of The Anatomy of a
Golf Course, Tom Doak's classic book on golf architecture. The chapter which
is named Fair Play perfectly describes the discussions surrounding fairness.
Its gist becomes clear through the use of three small quotes from this
chapter:



“Scratch golfers believe they have special province to judge the fairness of
golf, because the accepted measure of difficulty – the par value of each
hole – is based on the scratch player’s expected score”


“The only hole rightly judged unfair is one the poorer golfer may never
finish”


“If the architect is sure to champion variety in his design, then criticism of
the course as unfair will be recognised as the venting of frustration. Every
course worth its salt prompts a certain amount of sour grapes”


Conclusion: Be very, very careful to use the argument of unfairness to
change a hole, in most cases the changes will eliminate the character of the
hole together with the “unfairness”….


Having covered these general points lets turn to specific holes:


Hole 4.


The problem seems to be like this: Some years ago the club decided to move
the back/medal tee to a new position (not clear why, but lets assume
because of the need to get more yards on the card…), now we have two
problems with the hole namely erosion to the new tee and the fact that
most people cannot play the hole decently from the new tee because for
most players the original design of the green makes it unsuited to receive
shots from such a great distance.


Maybe I am missing something here but the solution seems pretty obvious!!
Go back to the original tee. Most people will be able to hit the green again
and the erosion problem becomes less of an issue. Why make the choice to
change/give up one of the most beautiful greens and holes of the course
just to gain a couple of yards which only interests a couple of low
handicappers?


By the way; this is exactly the sort of question your 10 year plan should give
you guidance on!


Using my memory and analysing my pictures of the course (which of course
is not as good as being on the ground), the best thing to do would be to
lower the current normal tee by about 1.5 meters which will make it a much
larger surface so it can accommodate both the normal and medal tees. It
will also make the walk on and of from the green of hole 3 much easier. If
the club feels a somewhat longer back tee is needed, the tee could then
also be extended on the back left side (behind green 3).



Moving the bunker somewhat more to the middle of the green seems a good
idea, it looks like it might have been more right in the past (or just larger),
and for the better players it compensates for making the hole shorter.
Summarizing: don’t change the green, do change the tees and if needed the
bunker and ask yourself why more distance is so key on this hole….


Hole 15


I had to chuckle here when I read your comment about it being a bad hole,
and immediately thought of this famous Tom Simpson quote:


“I do not suggest for one moment that people are not entitled to express
their opinions as to what they like or dislike, but when they go the length
of saying that some particular hole Is good or bad, they are more often
than not influenced by some peculiarity of their own play”


It is clear you and a number of other members do not like the hole, but that
does not make it a bad hole. Nevertheless there are real problems with this
hole, namely the logistical problems of a backup during play at the tee of
15, the fact that the hole now is too long for many players and the fact that
this green does not hold the shots into it very well.


The logistics will only improve if we move the tee forward from its current
situation. Question: where was the original tee for this hole? Behind the
green of hole 14? This strikes me is an important input for any solution.
Bringing the tee back to that situation could resolve part of the problem (I
don’t see why it would make the hole more boring for most players, and you
could keep the back tee for the players yearning for length).


An alternative would be to move the green forward and to the right, raise it
so it becomes visible and make it more receptive to shots. This being one of
the least characteristic greens of the course a new green in this case might
be an acceptable solution. Also a combination of moving the tee forward
and moving the green to the right and raise it might also work. This however
is the type of detailed work the golf architect needs to do on the ground
before being able to come up with a recommendation.


Hole 14


Again I see problems brewing here when you are going to lengthen the
medal tee of this hole by 40 yards. Great for the long hitters, but disastrous
for the average player. Clearly another example of the need of a good 10
year plan.


Another issue it raises is the problem of medal tees and normal tees. With
the increasing differences in length between good and average players it is

becoming more and more difficult to have both play of the same medal
tees. A system like in Europe and the US with mens tees for handicap 10 and
over and mens back tees for handicap 10 and below seems a better way to
go.


But back to the hole. You write “playing to this green… is a complete
lottery. Playing this hole often you would realise that the same shot can end
up in completely different places each time” and “the approach shot to the
green… is probably the most frustrating and inconsistently rewarded shot at
Cruden Bay. The lie of the land is such that a poor shot is often rewarded to
a greater extent than a good shot”


Lets have Tom Simpson answer that one himself:


“Competitive golf is chiefly responsible for this tendency to design courses
on principles of absolute and relentless justice”


What more can I say. Maybe Simpson would advise you to start practicing
poor shots for this hole…


If you and the members are determined to change this hole, then don’t
lengthen it, don’t tamper with the unique and quirky bathtub green, but
maybe make the entrance into the bathtub somewhat more gentle and build
in a slight hollow and threshold before the green to stop less well played
shots into this green.


Hole 16


It seems unlikely that Simpson did not carefully think out this green and its
fore green given what he said about his greens:


“Every putting green should have a distinctive note, and the ground in front
of it should be carefully studied”


You state that the hole has become somewhat of a joke over recent years
because it is virtually impossible to hit. Of course the Simpson’s quote about
competitive golf and justice I just quoted at hole 14 also applies to this
hole. But in addition it should be mentioned that the fact that the 16th
green is very difficult to hit is not unique in the golfing world. The same is
true for most par 3’s at Rye, where it is said that the hardest shots are the
second shots to the green. And last I heard they weren’t about to go and
change/relocate the greens of the par 3’s at Rye…..


But something else you wrote about this hole really sparked my interest,
namely the fact that it might be one of the few holes in the world that have
become more-, and not less, difficult to play due to “better” golf balls, golf
equipment and maintenance.



Pause at this. If this is true any golf architect worth their mettle would want
to find out what exactly has caused this. And if we found out what it was
that has changed this hole, then lets change it back, so the hole can be
played again like it used to be played. Are we cutting the grass shorter than
we should? Are we hitting the wrong type of shot into the green? Is the angle
of the shot from the tee box into the green different than it used to be?
Make sure you know the reason why the hole has started playing differently,
and make sure there is no way to change that reason before you decide to
abandon a beautiful and historic Simpson green.


Hole 8


This hole has always been an interesting hole because of the fact it teases
the player to take more club in his hands than he probably (from a scoring
point of view) should. Key to the success of this hole is that as many of the
players as possible have the possibility to try to drive this green (on
occasion). So not only the low handicappers! Bringing the medal tee back
will take this essential character out of the hole.


The well known American architect Mike de Vries says about this:


“Courses often erroneously add thirty to fifty yards to a short par 4,
thereby taking away a reachable par 4 from the weaker player, while not
affecting the play of stronger players”


Again this hole shows the problem of the system of the general medal tee.
Using the US/European system I see no problem in moving a tiger tee for a
small portion of the players 30 yards back if they want (as long as it does
not make putting on the 16th hole dangerous), but don’t make the average
golfers suffer.


Hole 9

Without a doubt the weakest hole on the course. It is almost so weak you
would think Simpson put it there to make you realize how good most of the
other holes are.

Key to improving this hole is to make the drive and second shot (visually)
more exciting to the players. Moving the fairway left is a good idea. So is
introducing different fairway levels and if possible changing the hole into a
short par 5 by moving the tee back to the far right of the hole. Again all of
this would require more research on the ground to come up with definitive
proposals.



At the end of this letter, there are two more points I would like to make:


First let me state that I find it hard to understand that you are hesitant to
accept my offer to get actively involved in the process of further improving
Cruden Bay because I am an (overseas) member.
I have the exact type of knowledge and experience you need, and the
credentials to match it.
Furthermore, as an overseas member who visits the club only infrequently,
I have no special ties or loyalties to any specific group in the club.
And finally (and maybe not unimportantly for a Scottish club ☺), because I
love the course dearly and am slightly mad and I am willing to help you at
virtually no cost. What other reason for hesitation am I missing here?


The last point of this letter, and probably the most important, is the almost
philosophical question that clearly permeates through all of these
discussions:


Does your club deep down really want to have a historic Tom Simpson
course with all its quirkiness and unfairness?


Or does your club want to change the course to something else; for it to
become a longer, tougher and fairer championship course such as
Carnoustie.


That will definitely be possible through a number of dramatic changes, but
by doing so you will at the same time destroy the uniqueness of Cruden Bay.
Sadly the club, and most of the rest of the golfing world, will probably only
come to realise and regret this many years after the fact.


The choice is your and yours only, and I sincerely hope the club makes the
right choice…


With kind regards




Frank Pont

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2017, 06:51:18 AM »
Just to chime in here. I was at Cruden Bay again last month and had a wonderful time with their Captain on a very windy day. I've probably said this before I'm sure but I just love the place and even though it seems to get a lot of love from the dojo here it's still highly under appreciated by the golfing world, how else could it miss out on rankings etc.


Indeed the comments on the changes are what I've been told as well and as I said, no matter what don't alter the 8th hole to bring that green out from it's cool location in the dunes there. I remember my first ever visit back in like 2006 that hole was a huge surprise. You could see the green was perhaps not in perfect condition but it wasn't terrible either. The other thing is that it's been there in one way or another for like 100 years (only a guesstimate) and now all of a sudden it's problematic to the point that it needs to be changed? Please, I don't buy it even if it requires a little more work from an agronomical stand point. As far as I'm concerned it's a museum piece and one the best and most fun, quirk filled courses in the UK and Ireland and thus the world.


I also hope they don't change the others as mentioned, skip the championships let them go someplace else like Trumps course or Castle Stuart or Loch Lomond or Dundonald links or any other modern course that has been built to also have the ability to be a 7500 yd slog. Courses like Cruden Bay should be treated like great masterpieces no different than paintings, cherished and every effort taken to maintain them in all their glory.

[size=78%]End rant.... [/size]




Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Michael Tamburrini

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2017, 06:54:47 AM »
Frank, I side with you on this (and with all the comments so far, really). 


Here's some snippets from the email the club sent:


No costings have been obtained for the work and obviously finance is a major consideration.The Club Council has not taken any view on whether the proposals, or any part of the proposals, should go ahead.


It must be stressed that no major work will be undertaken without prior approval of the members.




So we can hope that they are still a ways from finalizing their decision.
I've said most of this before but shortening the 8th hole is a horrible idea.  I'd rather have a slightly dodgy green than a generic par 3.  The 8th is a welcome break after the slog of the 5th-7th and yet is still very capable of punishing you.

If the 14th has a problem with light and damp air (as the report suggests) the green should be moved forward, not back.  It could be a skyline green and 50 yards shorter.  Although, again, I'd tend towards leaving it as it is.  A poorer green is worth the site and we know not how technology will have developed in 10 or 20 years.

The 15th is the easiest par 3 on the course with the tee closest to the beach.  I don't know why you'd want to change it or why some members seem so keen to be rid of it.

And the 18th... I actually like the 18th.  Sure, it might not be the prettiest tee shot (what with the driving range ten yards to your left) but this is links golf, it's not always pretty.  The fairway is excellent.  You can stay up on the left for the higher shot or be down on the lower level where your second shot is more obscured.  The green is one of the toughest on the course.  It's a better finishing hole than it looks.  The proposal to change it moves the tee to the rights (the 1st and 2nd on St Olaf would need altered) and adds in fairway bunkers and a wetland feature.

In addition the hole at the end of the course would be getting completely redone and incorporated into the layout permanently. 

And there's no mention of the 11th - my only gripe about the current layout.  Lovely hole, but doesn't fit.  (Okay, it's not my only gripe - the extended green at the back of the 5th makes me want to tear my eyeballs out - but it seems glaringly obvious to me that the 11th is far too close to the 13th). 


Anyway, I agree with everyone here.  It sounds like a lot of terrible ideas.

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2017, 09:32:31 AM »
I wish that I were still a member so that I could weigh in on this.


The 14th in particular is a fantastic hole. The decision of whether to just get your ball feeding down to the green and take what comes vs actively trying to get the ball close to the hole (usually by flying the ball all the way on which brings in trouble) is one of the most fascinating in golf. It's hard for the better golfer to accept the easy yet unpredictable route even though it's usually the smart play. The hole is also incredibly unique, and losing it would be a real detriment to world golf. I for one wouldn't travel half the world around (which I once did) to play the course without it.


The 16th is also very good in my mind. Addressing sand accumulation is one thing, but a major change is not something I could support.


I don't have any special love for the other holes in question. But with the exception of 9, they're all good holes and certainly don't need big changes. I totally agree with Sean that the drive on 18 is very good. I don't care at all about any poor visuals there.


One thing I don't understand at all is how clubs can market and care about their architectural provenance, but then completely disregard it! They have a lovely Simpson course that's probably pretty close to what he created. If they significantly change it, I hope that they don't continue to market it that way.


I feel like Cruden Bay will become the Eden Course, which is to say 12 or so holes of great work by a top designer and a lot of reminiscing about what once was. I'd hope they'd build better new holes than those on the Eden, but the result would be the loss of a great Simpson course leaving behind some great Simpson holes and a sort of composite course.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2017, 09:48:12 AM »
Wow ... I guess they can kiss their rankings goodbye ...


It also takes chutzpah to suggest that a green must be moved to obtain more sunlight when it has been in its present location for 90+ years!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 10:18:39 AM by Tom_Doak »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2017, 01:17:09 PM »
Reading this makes me kind of glad that my period of CB membership was early 1980's through to 1990's.
Not many seemed to know about the course then so both the Championship and the wonderful St Olaf were usually nice and quiet.
Only changes I can recall were at the 8th following the flood deluge, tweaked 6th and 10th greens and a new tee on the 5th. Never thought much of the 9th so pleased that's been revised. Recall a brief experiment on the 9th when a temporary tee mat was installed way to the right as you walk up the canyon path from the 8th. Didn't last long though, not many could hit it far enough over the canyon especially into the prevailing wind.
Sounds like I might have been there at the right time....persimmon, blades, balata, firm and bouncy, no thought of changes/upgrades, ex-Ryder Cup player as pro/character. Nothing flash. The old long chalet clubhouse. Local farmers and fishermen as members. Good times.
Atb

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2017, 02:44:46 PM »
Really tragic news.  Leave Cruden Bay alone.  14/15 was my favorite pair of holes on one of my favorite courses in the world. 

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2017, 02:54:53 PM »
I suppose an upside for the club will be the rush of visitors to play the course before it is changed.   I imagine there are a few from this discussion group looking at their calendars as we speak.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2017, 03:53:20 PM »
I suppose an upside for the club will be the rush of visitors to play the course before it is changed.   I imagine there are a few from this discussion group looking at their calendars as we speak.


I'm getting a mix of anxiety/regret reading this thread as my 9 round / 6 day visit to Scotland 4 years ago did not include Cruden Bay. I'll be very upset if it changes as it was just barely left off the itinerary.  :'(

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2017, 03:53:25 PM »
I'm really regretting not making more time to get up there now on my recent visit to Scotland.  Hopefully this comes to pass and all of Cruden Bay's current character remains as is. 
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2017, 06:02:41 PM »
Played Cruden Bay yesterday.  The changes to 9 seem well thought out and executed.  I wonder who guided the club through that process?   


They have already made unwise changes to the 14th green. The green is much higher than in the past and the green does not begin just over the fronting hill.  The turf on the green seems acceptable and I don't buy the explanation for removing one of the most iconic green sites in links golf. 


Ruining the bathtub would be a sad turn of events.  Holes like it and the Dell add magic to our game. 


Bart

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2017, 04:59:20 AM »
Played Cruden Bay yesterday.  The changes to 9 seem well thought out and executed.  I wonder who guided the club through that process?   


They have already made unwise changes to the 14th green. The green is much higher than in the past and the green does not begin just over the fronting hill.  The turf on the green seems acceptable and I don't buy the explanation for removing one of the most iconic green sites in links golf. 


Ruining the bathtub would be a sad turn of events.  Holes like it and the Dell add magic to our game. 


Bart


Bart,


Agree with you that the changes on the 9th and 10th were are excellent and huge improvements. In fact, 9th is simply a far more interesting hole both on the drive as well as the approach to the new infinity green. On the 10th adding the diagonal line and an almost Cape like cut off as much as you can chew option by taking on the carry and OB right on the drive also makes that hole far more interesting. Members have expressed concern about the green of 11 being in play but that requires both a very long drive as well as being I don't know how many yards to the right offline. I didn't see how it could be in play at all but I guess it's possible.


The work was done by Tom Mackenzie of Mackenzie & Ebert.



Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2017, 05:53:28 AM »
Played Cruden Bay yesterday.  The changes to 9 seem well thought out and executed.  I wonder who guided the club through that process?   


We discussed 9 and 10 already when I was working with the club in 2006-2009.

On hole 9 we discussed cutting the gorse left of the fairway, and subsequently moving the fairway left. We also discussed building a new infinity green left behind the exisiting green where the tee for hole 10 was. Furthermore I proposed to the club to move the 10th tee to the right to create a diagonal tee shot on 10, and then move the path down through the fairway of 10 to the valley going down.

The club did cut the gorse on hole 9 and prepared the ground to move the fairway to the left, but did not do move the fairway yet or build a new green. They also investigated moving the tee of 10 but decided against it because the cost of building a path through the valley down to the fairway was too expensive because the ground was very marshy and would require a lot of civil engineering works. The club at the time was losing a lot of money due to the start of the financial crisis that led to much less (US) greenfees.

Subsequently, two years ago, when the club was in a better financial situation, the club did the work with their new advisors M&E.

We also at the time looked at an alternative where hole 9 would have become a long par 5, with tees behind green 8 on the right side of the path running up. That way you would avoid the tedious walk up to the current tee of hole 9....


« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:59:08 AM by Frank Pont »

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cruden Bay 2017 proposed changes- extreme in my judgement
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2017, 12:20:45 PM »
I knew this would happen as soon as I heard that the Scottish Open is considering Cruden Bay. Of course they make it sound like the proposals have been years in the making, but they're not fooling anyone with half a brain. The only hope to rescue the course is now to find someone at the European Tour to disapprove those changes.

It's sad to have those self-important green committees, especially on a Simpson course - we all know what Simpson said about green committees.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)