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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 09:57:48 PM »
Peter:


In the end, of course, I'm going to recommend whatever I think is the best course.  Two of the ownership team have told me consistently from day one that's all they want:  what I think is the best possible course.  However, the real money guy behind the deal is not well versed in golf, and it's he who has asked tentatively about "top 100" and all that, which is why I asked the pointed question I did.


And it still amazes me how arbitrary some of the answers are, even in these last few posts.  The idea that bumping one of the holes up from 485 yards to 505 is really significant to the overall quality of the course?  That silly tees no one will play are important for appearances?  Or that Bandon might have failed if the first course was par 69?  It's apparent tons of people are still ready and waiting to make judgments based entirely on the scorecard.  It's almost enough to make me go par-69 just out of spite, but of course, I've got a client to consider.  ;)

Eric LeFante

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 10:06:26 PM »
Something that I think is important with a great golf course is testing every club in the bag for a variety of skill levels. Clearly that happens with at 6000-6400 for 10+ handicaps. To do that for a scratch player or low single digit I do think a course needs to be 6700+ and par 70s are fine. I don't think length is required to make golf courses difficult. A scratch player probably could not consistently break par from the ladies tee at Augusta or Pinehurst 2 because of the greens. I do think some length is required to test every club in the bag for a variety of skill levels down to a scratch player.


Most golf courses cannot test every club in the bag for a pro and I don't think courses should even think about doing that. I do think most of the top 100 test every club in the bag for a scratch golfer. How the course plays (requiring players to hit mid and long irons) for a scratch golfer shouldn't be the main consideration for clubs, but I do think it should be a consideration to be truly great.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 10:20:21 PM by Eric LeFante »

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 10:13:40 PM »
Tom,


As long as the course has variety, you will do great. I like to play courses b/w 6600-6800 and I am a true 3 handicap. I only worry about yardage less than 6500 if there is no variety in the holes. I don’t want to hit a 9 or Wedge into every Par 4, flip side, nor do I want to hit 4 iron into every Par 3.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 10:16:53 PM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 10:16:11 PM »
Look at New Orleans... best course is Audubon Park. It is also the shortest by a long shot but has great variety and fun.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 10:43:25 PM »


I run across this often.  Have a client who insists golfers still love the 7K par 72 course and asks me to go to great lengths (pun intended) to boost yardage while renovating.  What's funny is he claims to have loads of stats that prove him right, but never has showed them to me.  When I googled 7000 yard golf courses exactly one article came up.....mine from about ten years ago, basically parroting what most here would say (yes, part of the reason I participate here is to mine article ideas...you try writing one every month for a dozen years!)


The thing I keep thinking about is when my courses have hosted regional tourneys, like Sand Creek Station and the last Mid Am, although it has back tee yards of 7.200, when the wind blew, they played at 6750 one day, and never exceeded 7K to protect the lower half of the field.  Basically, unless you will certainly host the PGA tour, those tees rarely get used (I am presuming TD's course is coastal and has wind here)


I went through the exercise on a renovation -

Re-measure from 2 yards from the back of the tees, as most state golf associations will accept - nearly free, but print new scorecards, etc.


Add small back tees, no more than 20 x 20 (and maybe 15 x 15, given no one really uses them) at $10-20K, contractor prices, depending on where it is and how many you do.  Came out to about $900 per yard.


Reroute holes and/or reposition greens at 100K plus per coy.  Came out to about $9000 per yard.

For Tom's new course, the math would be different, basically divide length by 23 yards (sprinkler spacing,) times 2 or 3 rows, times the average $1500 or whatever per head.  Add in a few acres of grassing and the cost probably wouldn't be as drastic new.

Obviously, there is no real way to figure out just how much, if any, of your play comes from each yard.  $9000 per 300 yards is $2.7M, or $165K at low interest rates.  For argument, you need only 1650 rounds if you net $100 per golfer, which is possible.  For a muni course, where even a lower percentage play the back tees, and which might get $50 per round, getting over 3200 rounds out of an advertised back tee rate seems a bit iffy, and it would be a 10-12% increase in play, which would be pretty good.


I have also heard the argument that the internet age, where your first new customer touch is likely your pictures and scorecard on your web site, back tee distance may even be more important.  And, they may go to a tee time service, who may still harbor some length bias, which could hurt you.


I have seen some evidence that golfers check all the tee yardages when determining where to play.  For instance, unlike my Dad's WWII generation, who would never drop below 6,000 yards, senior men today tend to shy away from a course without sub 6K tees.


If anyone thinks they have a good way to quantify the 7K barrier, like Ross Perot, I am all ears!


I am hoping when people see the ridiculously low cost/benefit ratio, it opens there eyes.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brett Wiesley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 10:58:56 PM »
Tom:  I think you'll do what is best.  It takes a while, but people learn that par 71 and par 70 is pretty cool as it may give you a leg up on breaking 90/80/70.  That being said, par 69 may be too out of the box for a new resort style course.  As for distance, I like the idea of a practical design with whatever it takes for the yardage to be the playable course and the course on the card, but you can also hide a few tees way back for the need if it should come, or even just potential tee areas that are grassed, or left as potential, but not finalized now.


David Royer:  Super neat that you played Plum Brook CC in Sandusky.  I played much of my late teens - 20s golf there.  It has been much improved since they started some tree removal.  You wouldn't believe the maintenance budget they have, and how far they can stretch the dollar.

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 11:02:40 PM »
It's almost enough to make me go par-69 just out of spite, but of course, I've got a client to consider.  ;)


I admit it's irrational, but a course with a sub-70 par just doesn't interest me as much as one 70 or higher. It doesn't seem as legitimate to me. My sincere, nothing-implied question for you, Tom, is this: Does that occur for you at any number? If the best course on that land was only par 64, 58 or any other unorthodox number, would you be as interested in the project? Just curious.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 11:59:43 PM »
6400 yards with a par of 70. Throw an extra cross bunker or center bunker on a hole over 450 and call it a par 5. Have one hole measure at 500. Then do what you want.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2017, 12:40:12 AM »
Alex: John!

John: What is 6500 yards?

Alex:  Correct.  You select.

John:  Thanks, Alex, I'll stay with Top 100 Golf Courses for $1200.


Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2017, 02:06:30 AM »
Peter:


In the end, of course, I'm going to recommend whatever I think is the best course.  Two of the ownership team have told me consistently from day one that's all they want:  what I think is the best possible course.  However, the real money guy behind the deal is not well versed in golf, and it's he who has asked tentatively about "top 100" and all that, which is why I asked the pointed question I did.


And it still amazes me how arbitrary some of the answers are, even in these last few posts.  The idea that bumping one of the holes up from 485 yards to 505 is really significant to the overall quality of the course?  That silly tees no one will play are important for appearances?  Or that Bandon might have failed if the first course was par 69?  It's apparent tons of people are still ready and waiting to make judgments based entirely on the scorecard.  It's almost enough to make me go par-69 just out of spite, but of course, I've got a client to consider.  ;)


I don't think anyone here would say anything about having a minimum yardage or par if we could build a course for ourselves. The arbitrary answers come cause we know what the judgment would be like from the general public. Just like I wouldn't wear a shirt with the n word on it or play music aloud on a bus. There are some things that carry a stigma in this day and age. Par 69 carries prejudice...
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2017, 02:15:51 AM »
Its odd because my immediate reaction to par 69 is I bet the course is a tough bugger with lots of long 4s, very few 5s and likely a few long 3s. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2017, 02:30:14 AM »
Its odd because my immediate reaction to par 69 is I bet the course is a tough bugger with lots of long 4s, very few 5s and likely a few long 3s. 


Ciao


Exactly.


5 x Par 3
11 x Par 4
2 x Par 5   =   69


Does anyone seriously think that an extra par 5 makes for a "better" course?




Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2017, 03:04:56 AM »
Tom I think you're asking the wrong crowd. Dare you post this on Bombsquad?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2017, 03:23:54 AM »
7000 yards is the magical number and anything less is a minus.


Same reasons as Jeff. Just find some silly back tees that nobody plays and keep everybody happy.


Remember 19 out of 20 people don't understand the things 1 out of 20 here do.


Par 69 6600 yards is the same degree of toughness as 7400 yards Par 72 but 19/20 will not see it.


If the course is good enough it will make it but you are always making it harder for yourself with a sub 7000 yarder and the more it is under the tougher it is to convince.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2017, 03:31:54 AM »
Fun to read the posts so far and I think there is truth sprinkled here and there. I suspect Paul has come closest to hitting the nail on the head with his variety comments.


One of my favourite courses is Elie and I sigh when I hear people say 'It's not a Top 100 course...it's too short. It's just a resort course'. To me, length is just the visible symptom that people cling to and not the real issue. Not just at Elie, but when people say that a course can't be a top 100 because it's too short, I suspect they are just saying that it can't be a top 100 because there isn't enough variety. Taking another example, I have heard 3 or 4 times that West Sussex would be a top 100 course if it was 500 yards longer. Why does that matter? Does it not have strategically interesting holes? Does it not ask questions and present variety and a positive flow throughout the round for all abilities? Does Elie not do the same? Maybe they don't and that's ok. But at least then we can establish that variety and interest > length for length sake. However, we then can't dismiss that to achieve that variety and interest that will make a course popular and desirable to play, that length may be one of the ways in which we can achieve such results.

Tom, as others have pointed out, you know that it is about making the best possible course on the land available, and if you do that, then let the chips fall where they may. Do you think Daniel Day Lewis looked at scripts and thought 'Will this win me an Oscar?' Nope, he was too concerned with making a piece of art that would stand the test of time.

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2017, 03:54:01 AM »
Here in the UK, three of the generally acknowledged 'toughest courses' in our Top 100 have pars of either 68 (Rye, Aldeburgh) or 69 (Harlech), and of these the longest off the very back tees is Harlech at 6629 yards: both it and Rye and five short holes. The key index is not the overall par but the SSS (74, in the case of Harlech), conforming to Sean's point about lots of long 4s, some long 3s and few par fives. Interestingly both Rye and Harlech have hosted major national amateur championships in recent years (in Rye's case for the very first time).

Which is just by way of making the obvious point that overall length and overall difficulty (and overall quality) are not commensurate. And Tom should make the best possible course for general play using the land and resources available, whether the par is 68 or 72 or something in between. Tom Simpson famously refused to lay out any course projected to be longer than 6350 yards from the medal tees, and whilst in modern terms that probably translates to about 6750 yards, that's not a daft principle. To reheat a metaphor that Tom (D) has himself used in the past, would you rather spend three hours being charmed by Audrey Hepburn, or four and a half hours being beaten up by a drug-crazed shot-putter?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2017, 04:17:59 AM »
The par-69 out of spite option and "trust me" sounds good to me! :)
Perhaps start a re-trend......short is better.
All trends have to start somewhere.......and some make/made their name by challenging the status quo.
Any space for a punchbowl type putting green?
Atb


PS - does, from the developer/£$£ perspective, a shorter course mean quicker golf and thus more rounds played in a day?







Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2017, 05:41:28 AM »
Couple of points here:


I have -on more than one occasion in the last few years- used a sound bite that "Pacific Dunes is the only course to break in to the world top-20 since the turn of the century and it is only 6,600 yards".... So I'm surprised you are asking the question.


On the other / par side of the equation, I am toiling with the fact that the redesign at Strandhill that I'm doing may reduce the card from a 70 to 69 (whilst still adding about 100 yards). To the extent where I'm trying to find a distant back tee on one hole just for optics... Not sure Strandhill is going to quite crack the world 100 but you never know...

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2017, 06:19:03 AM »
I rate courses for the length I play them at, so the total length is irrelevant. Isn't that what everyone does?

That being said, I'd be wary of a par 69, but not because of yardage. It's just that this course is likely lacking variety in the par 5 department or has too many par 3s.

Ulrich


You mean like West Sussex or Swinley Forest :-)

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2017, 07:01:42 AM »
Tom,


Coming from you, it's a totally rhetorical question and no-one needs to tell you that. Maybe you are only looking for extra proof to show the developer/owner. Either way it's a good way to get a reaction here I suppose so I'll bite.


Depends really on which ranking you are going for.


Golf Digest: might be a tough one to get on with a really short course - though as mentioned there are always exceptions as people have mentioned.


Golf Magazine: present form better chance than GD. Though I guess you know them all so if the course is deserving of it, in a couple years time it will be there.


Other US pubs....probably but I'm not that in tune with them to say.


Confidential Guide: no comment needed. You only have 3 others to convince and none of them care if the course is 5000 par 65 or 6600 par 72 as long as it's a great routing with interesting and compelling architecture on a great site.


For rankings outside the US I doubt honestly you or the owner really care but championship courses aren't as highly praised as they would be by GD so no issues there.


I do echo the sentiments from several others, if anyone doesn't need to ask these questions it's you.


Good luck, can't wait to see Cali's first Top 50 par 69 course.
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Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2017, 07:11:09 AM »
Its odd because my immediate reaction to par 69 is I bet the course is a tough bugger with lots of long 4s, very few 5s and likely a few long 3s. 


Ciao


You just described Wannamoisett. 6730 yards from the back tee and only one par five which doesn't come until the 17th hole at which point your scorecard may look like the formula for kinetic energy. All laid out on about 100 acres of land and a fierce test with the outward nine holes being extremely difficult with seven par fours and two par threes. The Northeast Ameteur is held there every year so I don't think there is any "stigma" that goes along with a par 69 designation.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2017, 07:34:36 AM »
Tom wanted to know what raters think. By the time this course is finished Digest will have their $1,000 pay to play rater recruitment fully phased in. I doubt that the type of guy who purchases status cares where the back tees are located. It's all about nuance with these guys.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2017, 07:48:32 AM »
Golf needs more options and more variety ..... par 70 one day, different tees and par 68 the next day.
I do not see a problem.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 09:04:16 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2017, 07:57:37 AM »
Will the site be particularly windy?  Will it be designed, grassed, maintained and marketed as fast and firm, links-style, etc? 

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Is Too Short for a Top 100 Course?
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2017, 08:06:33 AM »
This makes me think of the Mackenzie story about how he expected many holes at Cypress Point to be controversial.  He was surprised that there was no controversy and attributed the lack of controversy to the beauty of the setting. 


If the spot is beautiful enough and the holes are good enough, I suspect the course would have a fair shot at top 100.