[James Brown]

If the difference is just conditioning...

[jeffwarne]

Is it me or is it pushing it to describe Royal Porthcawl and Pennard as "great".

If only circumstances were such that Pennard could have Royal Porthcawls conditioning. If only......
Atb

No
Pennard is best served raw.
an attempt at Porthcawl conditioning would lead to a littany of unPennardlike changes in culture and ultimately the course.

[Sean_A]

Pennard already costs £60 a game...is that not more than enough?  I dare not think what a round would cost if engineering work had to be done to keep water on the course and for a new watering system....not to mention what the course may look after the work.   I expect about the same as Porthcawl's hyper inflated greenfee  I will keep the £70 and let Pennard be rough.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Tim Martin you'd be surprised how many clubs do not open the bar until 11am.


Sean I agree that a finely manicured Pennard wouldn't necessarily work especially if it then cost £100 per round.

[Jon Wiggett]

One of the biggest negatives for links golf in the UK in the last few decades has not only been the over inflated prices charged by many of the top clubs but also for many of these clubs to over manicure their courses to point where they have lost part of the natural rawness which is an essential part of links golf. Many are now more akin to parkland/country club golf than tradition links.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Bit of a misunderstanding here. I guess my wording wasn't as it should have been.

Do I like Pennard, and others for that matter, raw? Yes. Would I like to see its conditioning changed? No.

Would it be interesting, hypothetically, to see, ..if only..how it and Porthcawl would compare if both were conditioned the same, at Porthcawls level? Yes.

Now to some folks, not necessarily those posting herein, conditioning it really important, and if it's not top notch they don't reckon much to the course, even one as unique/special/interesting as Pennard.

Now if both of them had Porthcawls level of conditioning/££, would Porthcawl or Pennard be generally, not GCA wise, but generally, be regarded as the better course, the better test of golf?

Or take it the other way, which would be regarded as the better course, better test of golf, if Porthcawl was conditioned like Pennard?

And for that matter, if they were given Porthcawls conditioning/£, where would the likes of Southerndown or Harlech/RStD's etc etc stand?

Atb

[Sean_A]

I don't know about all the conditioning what ifs etc, but for me, Pennard is at the very least the equal of Porthcawl in terms of quality and miles beyond it in terms of character.  I did a quick matchplay in the spring and its a blow-out.

1. P...the terrain is far better than RP
2. RP by default
3. RP
4. P...I will always go for the cool 5 over a 3
5. P...very good 3 compared to a runway par 5 slogging uphil
6. P...superb par 4 compared to another runway fairway
7. P...no discussion necessary
8. P...yet another stunning hole over great land with a cool green VS a dullish 5
9. Half...both excellent holes
10. Half...both very good
11. P...far less conventional than the prety as picture 3 for RP
12. P...by default...RP's 5 is dull
13. Half
14. Half...both very good holes
15. RP...great par 4 of distinction
16. P...nod goes to the par 5
17. Half...P's 5 is a bit too wild, but RP's 5 is a bit too dull...again
18. P...much the more interesting drive and approach

I make it 7 up for Pennard...just like the soda.  I really think people don't have a clue how good Pennard is.  They let conditioning and odd bounces get in the way of seeing excellent architecture. Even if I give all the halves to RP...its 2 up Pennard! 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

One of the biggest negatives for links golf in the UK in the last few decades has not only been the over inflated prices charged by many of the top clubs but also for many of these clubs to over manicure their courses to point where they have lost part of the natural rawness which is an essential part of links golf. Many are now more akin to parkland/country club golf than tradition links.


Jon

I know it's been wet, but nearly all the televised links events of the last month have  had a VERY defined and uniform first cut of rough.
Looks terrible-I'd guess that if they had no irrigation there'd be less opportunity to maintain such a line which is of course gets exaggerated when rainy periods get the rough growing and overhealthy.

[jeffwarne]

I don't know about all the conditioning what ifs etc, but for me, Pennard is at the very least the equal of Porthcawl in terms of quality and miles beyond it in terms of character.  I did a quick matchplay in the spring and its a blow-out.

1. P...the terrain is far better than RP
2. RP by default
3. RP
4. P...I will always go for the cool 5 over a 3
5. P...very good 3 compared to a runway par 5 slogging uphil
6. P...superb par 4 compared to another runway fairway
7. P...no discussion necessary
8. P...yet another stunning hole over great land with a cool green VS a dullish 5
9. Half...both excellent holes
10. Half...both very good
11. P...far less conventional than the prety as picture 3 for RP
12. P...by default...RP's 5 is dull
13. Half
14. Half...both very good holes
15. RP...great par 4 of distinction
16. P...nod goes to the par 5
17. Half...P's 5 is a bit too wild, but RP's 5 is a bit too dull...again
18. P...much the more interesting drive and approach

I make it 7 up for Pennard...just like the soda.  I really think people don't have a clue how good Pennard is.  They let conditioning and odd bounces get in the way of seeing excellent architecture. Even if I give all the halves to RP...its 2 up Pennard! 

Ciao

Good summary.
Porthcawl has the sea in play and has sea views from many holes.
That said it is not even close to the epic scenery that Pennard towers over.
I like Porthcawl a lot and it has a very cool dormy house, but Pennard is unlike anything else.
Save the one year (2014)when we visited in March and a few felt it was subpar, I have found the conditioning to be perfect for Pennard, and would be VERY disappointed to see more Porthcawllike conditioning at Pennard(in fact I did not like the definition at Porthcawl in this summer's Senior Open)-even if the price remained exactly the same.




Rough and rugged golf is far more fun-and IS good conditioning.
No way Southerndown(where I just was) would be better if they removed the sheep mown one height of cut in favor of mowers and multiple cuts and definition.


Kind've kills me I was just in Wales 4 days, stayed in Gower due to proximity to Pennard, and did not make it to Pennard-in fact I only played 2 rounds of golf due to nursing injuries.

[Thomas Dai]

Time to link in to this thread I started a few months ago -
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64300.0.html
Atb

[Richard Fisher]

Charles

Agree with Thomas that late-April to mid-June, or alternatively September to mid-October (when British Summer Time ends) are the optimal windows for a golf trip to Wales

If you are flying into Manchester, and ending up at Bristol, then you probably want to base yourself in three or four natural centres, viz Llandudno, Harlech, Swansea and Porthcawl

First, try the Victorian resort of Llandudno, a good base for North Wales GC  and Conwy (2020 Curtis Cup venue)

From there, you can drive via Nefyn across Snowdonia down to historic Harlech, which can be a  base for both RStD and Aberdovey (and going from the former to the latter by train remains one of the great seaside journeys in golf, with some fabulous estuary views: the Aberdovey clubhouse is practically an extension of the station platform).

You could then do the longish drive south from Harlech via Borth and Ynyslas or Cardiganshire (Gwbert-on-Sea) to South West Wales, and have a Swansea base for Tenby, Ashburnham and Pennard, before heading on to Porthcawl, as your final centre for Southerndown, Pyle and Kenfig and RPGC itself, before the concluding two and a bit hour drive from Porthcawl to Bristol Airport.

The only problem with this seagirt itinerary is that you don't take in some of Sean Arble's inland gems in the hills of the Welsh Marches like Llandindrod Wells and Welshpool and Kington, but in some ways it's easiest to combine those with the English Midlands: certainly a tour that took in (say) Little Aston and Welshpool would run the full gamut of the UK golf club experience!

Of course you won't (I suspect) want to visit all of these, and I would always recommend 36 holes at one course on a single day rather than trying to do two different courses on the same day: much less driving, time for proper lunch and  a drink, and very often much cheaper too. Whatever you do, though, you should definitely try to get on to Harlech, Aberdovey, Pennard and Porthcawl, not least so that you can then join in the friendly jousting about their relative merits on GCA! The other point Thomas and I always emphasise on this site is that driving times in Wales can be much greater than you think: it's possible that after you have left Llandudno you won't encounter a single further mile of dual carriageway highway until you get down to Swansea!

Jim Finegan's book on England and Wales All Courses Great and Small is excellent pre-trip reading, whatever you decide, as are the essays on Aberdovey and Harlech in Patric Dickinson' s A Round of Golf Courses. Bernard Darwin (a former President of the Welsh Golfing Union)  spent more holidays in Wales than anywhere else, so you'll be in very good company...

[Sean_A]

Richard

Therein lies the problem because I reckon Welshpool (and Kington, though technically not in Wales it is within spitting distance) are both courses which are every bit worth seeing as others mentioned.  To me, if one is going to have up to two weeks in Wales the most important courses to plan on are

Welshpool
Kington
Southerndown
Porthcawl
Pennard

and coming from Manchester Airport...assuming Charles hasn't seen them, my first ports of call would be in England...Hoylake and Wallasey. Moving west there is Conwy, N Wales and if one is feeling adventurous....Bull Bay, but this will suck time up.  If time is a problem, I would skip the entire Welsh nothern bit and just play Wallasey and Hoylake. 

Then down the M6 and cut west to pick up Welshpool.  This part of the itinerary is a killer!  After Welshpool onto to Harlech and Aberdovey....maybe spend more time than necessary to catch your breath 

After Harlech and Aberdovey, back east to Kington...you will have no shortage of mountain scenary going back and forth across Wales!   I reckon this is something like a week already gone.

After Kington, down through more mountains, the Brecon Beacons to play Southerdown, Porthcawl, Pennard and Tenby if time allows. 

I am knackered just typing that itinerary, but you take in a very cool group of courses: Hoylake, Wallasey, Welshpool, Harlech, Aberdovey, Kington, Southerndown, Porthcawl & Pennard. 

Ciao

[Derek Holland]

Moving west there is Conwy, N Wales and if one is feeling adventurous....Bull Bay, but this will suck time up.

Sean - If you had to pick one of Conwy or N Wales, which would you go with?

Best,
Derek

[Thomas Dai]

For those unfamiliar with which courses are where within Wales have a look the attached maps -
https://www.where2golf.com/golf-map-wales.asp
Ignore the maps ratings though.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Moving west there is Conwy, N Wales and if one is feeling adventurous....Bull Bay, but this will suck time up.

Sean - If you had to pick one of Conwy or N Wales, which would you go with?

Best,
Derek

Derek

I think Conwy is the better course because it doesn't have weak holes, but N Wales may have more of the best holes between the two.  There isn't that much between them. 

Ciao

[Derek Holland]

Moving west there is Conwy, N Wales and if one is feeling adventurous....Bull Bay, but this will suck time up.

Sean - If you had to pick one of Conwy or N Wales, which would you go with?

Best,
Derek

Derek

I think Conwy is the better course because it doesn't have weak holes, but N Wales may have more of the best holes between the two.  There isn't that much between them. 

Ciao

Thanks Sean! I am going to be doing a Liverpool area winter trip and was going to try and get a cold wet round in up in Northern Wales  Sounds like a coin flip between the two so that may be how I decide. O.L. and L.O. do intrigue me.

Best,
Derek

[Charles Lund]

Thanks to Richard, Sean, and David for thrir comments.  I copied and emailed them to myself.

I look forward to meeting up soon with Sean and David.

By councidence, I had been looking at Merseyside courses as an adjunct to Wales.  I am trying to combine a shorter Ireland trip to Ballyliffin  with a Wales trip.  I had a good experience flying Icelandair this summer and would fly them again from Seattle.  They have connections in Reykjavik to Belfast, Glasgow, and Manchester.  Ryanair routes between Derry and Glasgow or Derry and Liverpool suggest the potential of some time again in the UK.  Plus, there are ferries between Belfast and Liverpool.  I once took a ferry from Stranraer or Cairnryan to Belfast and checked a large golf travel bag and another large bag and avoided issues with airline baggage fees.

I am in SW England now and have been studying rail services to see how to integrate rail with other modes of transport. I will play a total of five courses on this trip.  I read quite a bit about St. Enodoc and opted for a five day ticket, because I liked the course on my arrival and had been thinking of olaying it three times.  So I decided the five day ticket offered value and opted for depth versus breadth this time.

So I will retain the posts from David, Sean, and Richard.

Charles Lund

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