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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Walking a Construction Site
« on: October 18, 2003, 07:03:53 AM »
A colleague and I spent quite a bit of time yesterday walking the construction site at the new Trump National course off I78 in New Jersey.  We studied all kinds of activities underway including construction and leveling of tees, installation of drainage, floating a green, excavation of bunkers, shaping of fairways, sodding of turf, and so on.  We talked to the construction staff (those that could speak English) and were fortunate to spend time with Chris Smith, the Superintendent growing in the golf course.  Chris is a great guy and is doing an outstanding job under difficult weather conditions.  He worked at Inniscrone with Gil and also did the growin at Hudson National.  He said this course would have been done by now were it not for bad weather.  He told us about heavy rains and sheet flows of water coming off the hillsides and washing sod (the whole course is being sodded outside of greens, tees and fairways) out into the middle of the fairways.  They have had to re-seed the fairways on several occasions.  We talked about Tom Fazio who is doing the course (actually Logan Fazio is the on-site design architect).  For those of you wondering, Chris said Tom himself is on-site every two weeks walking the property and inspecting the work.  Chris said about 300,000 cubic yards of earth have been moved.  

As far as the course itself, it sits on 280 acres of beautiful rolling terrain.  From what we could see, the routing offers a wonderful tour of the property which consists of treed areas and wide open expanses with fantastic vistas of the countryside.  Tom build some bold and enormous bunkers most of which were hand-edged and will consist of steep edges and high flashed sand.  The greens are large and undulating and well defended.  The one hole on the back side features a cape style green reminiscent of a reverse version of the 17th at Congressional.  The hole meanders down the hillside doglegging to the right to a peninsula greensite sitting out in the lake.  It will surely be one of the most photographed holes on the golf course.  There are touches of fescues in some areas though Chris said its use will be limited.

Chris said little rock was encountered on the site and little blasting was necessary.  Quite a few trees were cleared (many were replanted) but from what we could see, the course has an openness and non-claustrophobic feel.  Unlike Trump National in NY which was shoe-horned into the property, this is a BIG track.  Though each hole offers several sets of teeing grounds, several of the holes feature significant forced carries from the back.  I forgot to ask the total yardage but my guess is in the 7500+ range for sure.  The one par three featured a 240 yard carry over a stream to a plateau greensite bunkered on both sides.  But the course as a whole is expansive in feel and clearly is being designed to hold a significant tournament.  Chris said as much and even commented that to determine the fairway widths; they heavily consulted with the USGA on tournament conditions.  Most of the landing areas neck down in the 25-30 yard range and if I had one early on complaint (or observation) it would be the fairway width (or lack there of).  Some of the holes will be very demanding when the rough is up.  Clearly this course is being built for championship standards and members will know that.  

I’m sure many of you who are interested in golf course architecture have toured construction sites before.  I always enjoy it and learn more every time I have the opportunity.  I highly recommend doing so if you ever have the chance.  

Mark

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2003, 09:19:05 AM »
Mark Fine,

Are you positive that the entire golf course is being sodded ?
All fairways and roughs ??

Out of curiousity, where would they get that much consistent sod ?  I can't imagine that it would be from one farm or one contractor.

Is this the identical routing and hole design that Fazio layed out for the previous owner, or have there been routing and hole design changes since Trump purchased the property ?

It was my understanding that one, or two holes had two green sites, not unlike # 8 at PC.  Are these holes, with those two greens still part of the final golf course ?

Trump National in New York was an existing golf course, Briarcliff Manor.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2003, 09:28:35 AM »
Mark,
What town/county is the course in?  I'm wondering if it's anywhere near Far Hills and the USGA.  

There's some very beautiful land up there.

I'm guessing that the course will be very exclusive and limited to Atl City high rollers and members?

Bye

Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2003, 09:45:57 AM »
Patrick,
Fazio tends to (almost) wall to wall sod his courses. There's always plenty of sod available.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2003, 09:56:39 AM »
Pat,
The price tag for the course is $50 million.  You can buy a lot of sod for that price  ;)  As I said in the original post - greens, tees and fairways are being seeded.  

We walked a number of holes and I didn't see any holes with two greensites but that doens't mean there are none.  We spent most of our time studying the various construction aspects going on.  

I can't answer your questions about the original routing.  And yes I did realize Trump National in New York was an existing golf course, Briarcliff Manor.  However, there is nothing left of the original golf course (per my friend who played there with me and who had played the original course in the past).  

The course is located just off I78 (I believe it is exist 24).  Not sure what town but it is 5-10 minutes from Hamilton Farms.  

I have to say I was impressed.  

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2003, 11:55:02 AM »
Mark:

Are there going to be homes on the course?

It sounds similar to Hudson National?


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2003, 12:05:55 PM »
Joel,
According to Chris, no homes on the golf course.  This one might be pretty darn good.  I will be back over again in the next week or so to keep tabs on progress and follow the construction.  
Mark

Hope to see you next Tuesday at Olympic.

TEPaul

Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2003, 12:53:28 PM »
Walking a golf course construction site is always an education and talking about what's happening and how with an architect or anyone who's out there is too. The best education of all though is walking the site preconstruction--sometimes even pre-routing. That's the best of all. Then go back for periodic visits and see how it all comes together!

TEPaul

Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2003, 12:55:14 PM »
If you do that enough an architect may even ask you for some of your thoughts and then you may get the unique opportunity to mess something up and learn even more!   ;)  

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2003, 01:11:50 PM »
I thought Jim Fazio was doing all of Trump's work.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

TEPaul

Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2003, 01:35:40 PM »
quassi:

That was before Trump realized he couldn't fake out all the people all of the time!  ;)

Or maybe that was before Trump realized what Pat Mucci needs to realize---that being if you tell any architect to do the same thing you just might not come up with the same product--even if those architects share the same name!  ;)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2003, 01:56:23 PM »
Tom Fazio is definitely involved with this one and Trump might have finally gotten it right.  Chris was saying something about sites that were set aside for homes with millions of dollars of deposits on them and Trump decided to give the money back and stick with a pure golf course free of housing or estates.  Though long due to the size of the site, Chris said the course is designed to be very walkable.  

jeff kitchen

Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2003, 03:56:16 PM »
Well, hopefully this one doesn't have a waterfall... >:(

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2003, 05:51:11 PM »
Jeff,
I think he spent the $7MM on something else this time.  

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2003, 03:17:38 PM »
 Mark, I've only spoken with one Grow-in guy and that was by trespassing, unwelcomed.  He was interested in my interest enough though to give me the lowdown on the plan and activities.  It was a terrific birthday present for me and someday hope to repay his generosity.
  Anyway, how did you approach the site or did you pre-arrange it with the facility?
  I have traipsed through pre-construction sites prior to any human or machinery activity but I've found a couple of places unwelcoming during construction or grow-in.  (Pronghorn had camoflauged snipers puttin' the laser dot on my forehead.)
 
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2003, 07:45:44 PM »
.....slag ,you [and any site regulars ] are always welcome on any of our sites....start new outside reno in nov., another near seaside ,fla. in feb.....and we supply adult beverages [but not before noon].......
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2003, 08:20:41 PM »
Mark Fine/Tom Paul:

I share your view that seeing a golf course prior to and during construction can be quite interesting. In your neck of the woods, I was fortunate enough to have that opportunity at Stonewall.

After years of seeing finished products, I'm now far more interested in the creative process. You get a far better appreciation of that seeing the land before anything has been done.
Tim Weiman

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2003, 08:31:26 PM »
I have some intimate knowledge of the goings on at this job, and it is not all peaches and cream. The course would probably be a knockout if it weren't for a meddling owner. There was supposed to be a neat gambling par 4 that nodded to Riv. 10...until the owner insisted on a pond.

The reasoning given? because I'm the owner.

The_Goose

Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2003, 09:09:34 PM »
Not meaning to nit pick, but Trump National in NY was not formerly "Briarcliff Manor", but "Briar Hall".  Briarcliff Manor is the town where the course is located.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2003, 09:40:48 PM »
Slag,
Best advice I can give you is to ask!  All someone can say is no.   It also helps to have good connections.  Sounds like you are in good shape with Paul  ;)

SPDB,
Interesting comment.  Might be a good example of how sometimes an architect builds a golf hole that is less than ideal and we blame him when it reality it was the owner who designed it.  I'm sure this happens all the time.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Walking a Construction Site
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2003, 10:06:57 PM »
Mark - its just a shame that Nat'l Fairways had to go tits up, and that Trump surfaced. The course probably could have been something special. The land is terrific.

An interesting aside - Trump had all the members who had signed up (either with him, or when it was a NFways gig) up to a reception in an (unsold!) apt. on the top floor of his latest monstrosity on 1st Ave.

Members were each charged $100 to help defray some of the cost. Can you believe that? Not only is it Trump throwing it, but they are also putting up 250k for membership.

Just so there is no confusion, I'm not, nor would I ever consider being a prospective member.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2003, 10:07:39 PM by SPDB »