[Thomas Dai]

There is another aspect to consider........the Mrs wanting Mr Retired out of the house and out from under her feet. And the husband only to glad to have somewhere he can go and hang out with his like-minded mates!
atb

[Mark McKeever]

Certainly not true in the Washington, DC area.

Agreed.  You can't join anywhere around DC without a checkbook ready.

[Wayne_Kozun]

This wasn't true in the Toronto area but there is a club called Summit that is an excellent Stanley Thompson track that has eliminated their initiation fee.

[Carson Pilcher]

Certainly not true in the Washington, DC area.

Agreed.  You can't join anywhere around DC without a checkbook ready.

Not true in the Atlanta area either.  There are essentially 8 top-rated clubs in Atlanta, and all of them charge between $65k-$110k for initiation.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have been advised that there are no restrictions on tee times under the LuLu "member for a day" program; however, tee times can be made 10 days in advance but member play on weekends is heavy but no problem during the week.


Concerning the cost of their annual membership, given the sad state of public golf in the area, it's not a bad deal. Certainly, if one computes the cost per round, it's probably more than the local public courses; however, convenience, course quality, pace of play, camaraderie, etc all factor into a decision to join or not.


As I said before, all golf is local, just like politics.   

[Mike_Young]

Certainly not true in the Washington, DC area.

Agreed.  You can't join anywhere around DC without a checkbook ready.

Not true in the Atlanta area either.  There are essentially 8 top-rated clubs in Atlanta, and all of them charge between $65k-$110k for initiation.

Carson,
There may be 8 where there were once 30.  Of the 8 several have decreased it and allow it to be paid over time.  And a couple of those may change before it all filters out.  IMO I still call that a demise....cheers...

[Carl Nichols]

Certainly not true in the Washington, DC area.

Agreed.  You can't join anywhere around DC without a checkbook ready.

Not true in the Atlanta area either.  There are essentially 8 top-rated clubs in Atlanta, and all of them charge between $65k-$110k for initiation.

Carson,
There may be 8 where there were once 30.  Of the 8 several have decreased it and allow it to be paid over time.  And a couple of those may change before it all filters out.  IMO I still call that a demise....cheers...

I think that's the trend in DC. There aren't many that still have a significant downstroke and a full membership (e.g., Congressional, Chevy, Washington Golf, probably Columbia).  There are some that haven't reduced the initiation fee, but aren't quite as full as they'd like to be (e.g., Bethesda, possibly River Falls).  There are a number that haven't ever had a big fee and/or have substantially reduced it (e.g., TPC Potomac, Lakewood, Norbeck).  And some are offering public play (e.g., Argyle).  My sense is that many clubs other than the ones in the very upper tier are having financial issues.  Montgomery County probably has one or two private clubs too many for the demand.


I'm amending my post above to reflect something I had been told that wasn't accurate.

[Dan Herrmann]

Rochester, NY is a fascinating study here.    Rochester is a small metro area with an abundance of excellent+ golf courses.    I don't know what they charge for initiation up there, but I'm guessing they can charge a pretty hefty fee due to the quality of places like Monroe, CCR, Oak Hill, etc.


And it's a very interesting city (I have 2 brothers living there).   They've been crucified by economic factors - Kodak is almost gone, Xerox is tiny compared the the old days, Global Crossing went kaput.   Yeah, Wegmans is there, but it's a grocery store.


And they have a pretty short golf season.   Probably one of the reasons Oak Hill has bowling alleys.

[Ira Fishman]

Certainly not true in the Washington, DC area.

Carl,


Woodmont is lower than pre-Recession when it got up really high, but it still is hefty initiation and dues.  Even Kenwood (our club) has maintained a stiff initiation and has raised dues despite not being a top tier course.  Not sure what the story is at Burning Tree given its status as the only all male club in the area. 


Ira



Agreed.  You can't join anywhere around DC without a checkbook ready.

Not true in the Atlanta area either.  There are essentially 8 top-rated clubs in Atlanta, and all of them charge between $65k-$110k for initiation.

Carson,
There may be 8 where there were once 30.  Of the 8 several have decreased it and allow it to be paid over time.  And a couple of those may change before it all filters out.  IMO I still call that a demise....cheers...

I think that's the trend in DC. There aren't many that still have a significant downstroke and a full membership (e.g., Congressional, Chevy, Washington Golf, probably Columbia).  There are some that haven't reduced the initiation fee, but aren't quite as full as they'd like to be (e.g., Bethesda, possibly River Falls).  There are a number that haven't ever had a big fee and/or have substantially reduced it (e.g., TPC Potomac, Lakewood, Norbeck).  And some are offering public play (e.g., Argyle).  My sense is that all clubs other than the ones in the very upper tier are having financial issues.  Montgomery County probably has one or two private clubs too many for the demand.

[Rob Marshall]

Rochester, NY is a fascinating study here.    Rochester is a small metro area with an abundance of excellent+ golf courses.    I don't know what they charge for initiation up there, but I'm guessing they can charge a pretty hefty fee due to the quality of places like Monroe, CCR, Oak Hill, etc.


And it's a very interesting city (I have 2 brothers living there).   They've been crucified by economic factors - Kodak is almost gone, Xerox is tiny compared the the old days, Global Crossing went kaput.   Yeah, Wegmans is there, but it's a grocery store.


And they have a pretty short golf season.   Probably one of the reasons Oak Hill has bowling alleys.

The courses mentioned all still have initiation fees but they also provide a pretty generous period of time to pay it. Wegmans is up and down the east coast. U of R is a large employer and Rochester is loaded with successful businesses. Constellation brands is one.


Oh, This year is not the norm but the season for the most part is 4/1 to 11/30. It's not Antarctica by any means.

[BCowan]

We have approximately 300 playing members, around 150 of whom play in the competition every Saturday. Maybe another 30-40 play mainly on Sundays and a few play their golf mid-week. Almost all members play at least once per week, with most playing a couple of times and a few virtually every day.

One of the main reasons I hear for people leaving one club for another is the inability to guarantee a Saturday morning tee time.

A joining fee (initiation) helps prevent such defections but at the core level of British golf such fees no longer exist at all. I would be very surprised if more than 500 out of the UK's 3000 golf clubs still have joining fees. Indeed, many clubs now attempt to lure in new members by offering a hefty discount on the first year's dues - a reverse joining fee!

Personally, I dislike the whole notion of an initiation. Club loyalty should be gained through offering the best possible member experience, not by holding a member to ransom over the potential forfeit of his joining fee.

Such fees, particularly at the eye-watering levels spoken of at American clubs - discriminate against the majority of people who simply cannot afford or justify the shelling out of a lump sum but might otherwise make excellent long-term members. To me, joining fees are a relic of the old snobbery attached to golf clubs and largely a way of "keeping out the riff-raff".

Golf - and golf clubs in particular - need to attract participants from a far wider demographic than ever before. A few clubs at the top end might be able to cling on to the old elitist model, but for the vast majority it means democratising the game and the industry.

Joining fees are fast becoming history. Hopefully dress codes will quickly follow!

Members of golf clubs are increasingly serious golf addicts, who need their fix at least every few days

Duncan,

   Great post.  Are your 300 members family and or couple memberships?  All the bold text i highlighted I agree with you.  One solution, though it is harder on maint crew is to have a Saturday morning shotgun (1 top tier Detroit club does this).  Though I hate them.  Do you go off 1 and 10 tee on Saturday morning?  In the US we have all FAMILY models with Junior, Intermediate, and Full members, typically a progressive tier.  It's a very flawed model IMO (that worked before public golf improved through agronomic advances and DUI enforcement) and practically every halfway decent course does it, so there is little choice.  Our choices are 5hr local public round, play regional and national destination golf early, bend over, or do numerous other activities.  Private clubs think they are competing against one another, but they aren't IMO.  The best outcome on this side of the pond is when a member or two buys his club and runs it like a business.  I'd love in the US to see 500 individual members @ $2400 a year, small clubhouse or close the Leviathan down 5-6 months, monday outings or public play for maint improvement ect.  If my wife decided to take up the game, I'd take her to a local muni or 9 holer until she became addicted and paid the 2nd $2400.  Populations aren't decreasing and the rust belt cities aren't any different then many other areas.  Quality privates aren't in abundance, but their attitude towards those of lesser means is very putting off and I wouldn't be surprised if some in a community wouldn't care if the track went belly up.  It's frustrating to know that certain Doak 5's in declining areas aren't going to survive the next downturn, many of which could be prevented.  We have beaten this to death on the board, but repetition is good for the ignorant. 

[Dave Doxey]

  After belonging to private clubs for most of my life, I’ve spent the last 10+ years not belonging to a club.  Why?  I relocated for work, expecting to live in that area for 2 or 3 years.  Putting down a big joining fee made no sense.  Refundable fees do not look to be something that one can expect to take advantage of.  Just google all of the lawsuits and disputes about the subject.

 
As my stay in the area grew longer, I continue to see me moving away in a year of two, although it hasn’t happened.  Reviewing the option of joining a club,  I’m affected by watching a neighbor drop $50K on a membership initiation, only to have the club go bankrupt after 2 years, leaving him with a cost-per-round of over $3000.  With clubs in financial trouble and clubs selling out, I see any initiation costs as at-risk.

 
Some other thoughts:

 
Any course that allows open play for payment of greens fees should not pretend to also sell “memberships” - they are selling “season passes”. People who buy those passes are likely relying on cost-per-round in their decision.

 
When a club drops the initiation fee, should they refund that fee to existing members? If not, how does a member feel when he paid $50K last year and plays with a member who paid nothing this year?

 
Golf, to me, is first about the people that you play with and second about the course experience, which I define as course design, conditioning, and customer service.  I play multiple times per week with tha same groups of people that are enjoyable and we find multiple local courses that provide the course experience that I enjoy. I play local publics and occasionally privates via a state golf association 1-day tournament program.

 
Rack rates for greens fees have decreased dramatically in recent years, and on-line tee time sellers provide even lower rates (I don’t care to get into their pros & cons to the industry…)

 
Not wanting to join a restaurant, swimming pool, tennis club, or exercise facility, and having no need to try to impress anyone socially, I just cannot come up with a good reason to join a private.

 

 

[Tim Martin]

  After belonging to private clubs for most of my life, I’ve spent the last 10+ years not belonging to a club.  Why?  I relocated for work, expecting to live in that area for 2 or 3 years.  Putting down a big joining fee made no sense.  Refundable fees do not look to be something that one can expect to take advantage of.  Just google all of the lawsuits and disputes about the subject.

 
As my stay in the area grew longer, I continue to see me moving away in a year of two, although it hasn’t happened.  Reviewing the option of joining a club,  I’m affected by watching a neighbor drop $50K on a membership initiation, only to have the club go bankrupt after 2 years, leaving him with a cost-per-round of over $3000.  With clubs in financial trouble and clubs selling out, I see any initiation costs as at-risk.

 
Some other thoughts:

 
Any course that allows open play for payment of greens fees should not pretend to also sell “memberships” - they are selling “season passes”. People who buy those passes are likely relying on cost-per-round in their decision.

 
When a club drops the initiation fee, should they refund that fee to existing members? If not, how does a member feel when he paid $50K last year and plays with a member who paid nothing this year?

 
Golf, to me, is first about the people that you play with and second about the course experience, which I define as course design, conditioning, and customer service.  I play multiple times per week with tha same groups of people that are enjoyable and we find multiple local courses that provide the course experience that I enjoy. I play local publics and occasionally privates via a state golf association 1-day tournament program.

 
Rack rates for greens fees have decreased dramatically in recent years, and on-line tee time sellers provide even lower rates (I don’t care to get into their pros & cons to the industry…)

 
Not wanting to join a restaurant, swimming pool, tennis club, or exercise facility, and having no need to try to impress anyone socially, I just cannot come up with a good reason to join a private.

Dave-I appreciate your post and the logic behind it. Since 2008 there has been a dramatic shift in the way many private clubs offer memberships. Timing is everything and there were/are plenty of disgruntled members as it pertains to what "I paid" versus what "they paid". Seems that the models will continue to change as the golf business continues to evolve.

[Ulrich Mayring]

But if a guy wants to pay a premium for an empty course what is it to anybody else?  Its difficult to place hard membership numbers on what makes for affordable dues.   That is why there are all sorts of different approaches/models.   I think 1000 members is well pushing the bursting point of prime weekend playing times.  So for me its fine to cut the membership by 300ish and eliminate visitor access to AM weekend times.

It is completely obvious to any theater or football stadium goers that there are only so many good seats and if you don't reserve timely, you will have to sit in the back. Compared to that golf clubs are much more democratic - anyone can get a prime weekend tee time, even if they haven't paid a premium fee. Under those conditions it should also be completely obvious to golf club members that those prime weekend times will deplete and that slow movers have to play at another time.

Complaining about an economically difficult situation, but not accepting that sound economics also means sound utilisation of the resources is just naive.

Now, there might be something like an "elite club" with very high membership dues, who can thus afford to have only a few members and still make it work economically. In principle there is nothing to be said against that in the same sense that nothing could be said against a company paving over a popular public park in order to build a parking lot, where only ten cars park all day. Although those ten cars would all be Rolls Royce and Bentley.

The keyword here is "land usage". In rural areas, where land lies dormant, a golf course for a few folks seems fine. In metropolitan areas, where every bit of green space is going to be sorely missed, the story is different. If you are going to build a course there, you better prove that it will entertain a lot of people and not be an enclave for the rich. Otherwise, at least in civilised countries, you'll be told off by a government, which looks after the common interest, not just golfers interests.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

But if a guy wants to pay a premium for an empty course what is it to anybody else?  Its difficult to place hard membership numbers on what makes for affordable dues.   That is why there are all sorts of different approaches/models.   I think 1000 members is well pushing the bursting point of prime weekend playing times.  So for me its fine to cut the membership by 300ish and eliminate visitor access to AM weekend times.

It is completely obvious to any theater or football stadium goers that there are only so many good seats and if you don't reserve timely, you will have to sit in the back. Compared to that golf clubs are much more democratic - anyone can get a prime weekend tee time, even if they haven't paid a premium fee. Under those conditions it should also be completely obvious to golf club members that those prime weekend times will deplete and that slow movers have to play at another time.

Complaining about an economically difficult situation, but not accepting that sound economics also means sound utilisation of the resources is just naive.

Now, there might be something like an "elite club" with very high membership dues, who can thus afford to have only a few members and still make it work economically. In principle there is nothing to be said against that in the same sense that nothing could be said against a company paving over a popular public park in order to build a parking lot, where only ten cars park all day. Although those ten cars would all be Rolls Royce and Bentley.

The keyword here is "land usage". In rural areas, where land lies dormant, a golf course for a few folks seems fine. In metropolitan areas, where every bit of green space is going to be sorely missed, the story is different. If you are going to build a course there, you better prove that it will entertain a lot of people and not be an enclave for the rich. Otherwise, at least in civilised countries, you'll be told off by a government, which looks after the common interest, not just golfers interests.

Ulrich

Ulrich

I am not gonna get into the whole commie thing about land usage    However, it seems to me that if its simply a matter of better planning each and every week to get prime weekend slots then there are too many members because presumably the folks who didn't grab a time at 8:00am on the day the tee sheet opens want to play at good weekend times as well.  Either a club is servicing its members well or not.  IMO, a consistent battle for the best times shows great interest in the club, but with too many members. 

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, all I can say is that I have actual experiences with this situation, so I don't have to speculate. In my former club, which had well over 1000 members, you could reserve your tee time exactly one week in advance. So every Sunday evening I had to go online and reserve my tee time for the coming Saturday or Sunday. If it was important enough to me to get a choice of tee times, then I did that. At other times, when I didn't care too much, I didn't bother.

There was a lot of moaning in the club, when this system was first introduced. But once everyone (including myself) got over themselves, it wasn't an issue anymore. 95% of the membership got used to that, the other 5% left and joined a quieter club, where they soon found out about the disadvantages of "quiet"

Ulrich

[David Wuthrich]

Not true in Houston either.


Must pay initiation fee at all private clubs.  Some less than others, but still something.

[Paul Jones]

Even in Louisiana we still have initiation fees: NOCC, Metairie, Squire Creek, Oakbourne, CCofLA, BRCC, Lake Charles, Southern Trace, etc...


New Orleans and Baton Rouge have much higher initiation fees than Lafayette and Lake Charles.

[Sean_A]

Well, all I can say is that I have actual experiences with this situation, so I don't have to speculate. In my former club, which had well over 1000 members, you could reserve your tee time exactly one week in advance. So every Sunday evening I had to go online and reserve my tee time for the coming Saturday or Sunday. If it was important enough to me to get a choice of tee times, then I did that. At other times, when I didn't care too much, I didn't bother.

There was a lot of moaning in the club, when this system was first introduced. But once everyone (including myself) got over themselves, it wasn't an issue anymore. 95% of the membership got used to that, the other 5% left and joined a quieter club, where they soon found out about the disadvantages of "quiet"

Ulrich

Ulrich


It sounds very much like you are saying (and this every week) screw the guys that didn't call 2 minutes earlier....thats not the type of club which would interest me. 


Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sean,

I didn't know you lived in a socialist commune, but from where I hail, life is continuously "screwing the guys, who don't get shit done"

It's the law of supply and demand. Highly popular goods sell out quickly. First movers get the pick of the lot. I don't think this is a very sophisticated concept - we all are quite used to that in most walks of life. Only as golf club members we are, apparently, baffled by the fact that resources are limited and we cannot have our cake and eat it.

If you have a club that is affordable, has a quality course and a moderate number of playing members, so you can go out whenever you like - great! But you are paying a price for that. Obviously, I can't say what that price is in your case, you would know that better. I can only assume that the price is right for you, but it is not right for most others. If it were, then your club would be stuffed.

I believe that for most clubs the easiest route to more economic stability is to utilise their resources better. The course is sitting there and it's paid for, so why not use it more?

Ulrich

[Duncan Cheslett]

I believe that for most clubs the easiest route to more economic stability is to utilise their resources better. The course is sitting there and it's paid for, so why not use it more?

Good point.


There is a very good "supply and demand" argument for making those members who want to play in the morning at the weekend pay more than those playing in the afternoon. The idea of an 'Off-Peak' full membership category allowing all the normal benefits with the exception of weekend morning play would have great appeal if it was say 20% cheaper than normal full membership.


I am, of course, an habitual afternoon player! 

[Josh Stevens]

Surely its the price you pay for wanting to have clubs with so few members and no public play. 

America seems to like splendid isolation, while UK and Australia prefer our private clubs to be cluttered up with people.
Typical Australian metro private club will have at least 1500 members of which about half are hard core regular players.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I didn't know you lived in a socialist commune, but from where I hail, life is continuously "screwing the guys, who don't get shit done"

It's the law of supply and demand. Highly popular goods sell out quickly. First movers get the pick of the lot. I don't think this is a very sophisticated concept - we all are quite used to that in most walks of life. Only as golf club members we are, apparently, baffled by the fact that resources are limited and we cannot have our cake and eat it.

If you have a club that is affordable, has a quality course and a moderate number of playing members, so you can go out whenever you like - great! But you are paying a price for that. Obviously, I can't say what that price is in your case, you would know that better. I can only assume that the price is right for you, but it is not right for most others. If it were, then your club would be stuffed.

I believe that for most clubs the easiest route to more economic stability is to utilise their resources better. The course is sitting there and it's paid for, so why not use it more?

Ulrich

Thats just it...club membership is largely meant to mitigate the law of supply and demand...no?  That is one of the biggest benefits of club membership.  Hence my problem with focusing too much on cheap dues and not enough on quality experience. Chasing visitor fees too hard can be a problem of penny wise pound foolish.



This is exactly why I say plenty of club models exist to meet the different the demands of their memberships.  There is no cookie cutter model for all.  I put up with the overcrowded Saturday AM tee sheet because the course is good all year round, I don't pay much and playing in comps isn't very important to me.


Ciao

[Mark Pavy]

It's the law of supply and demand. Highly popular goods sell out quickly. First movers get the pick of the lot. I don't think this is a very sophisticated concept - we all are quite used to that in most walks of life. Only as golf club members we are, apparently, baffled by the fact that resources are limited and we cannot have our cake and eat it.

I believe that for most clubs the easiest route to more economic stability is to utilise their resources better. The course is sitting there and it's paid for, so why not use it more?

Ulrich

   Any financially stressed club should spend $10k and offer Night Golf, it's that simple.

[Richard Fisher]

Apologies if this has already been raised by others, but one initiative that I recall receiving quite a lot of discussion a few years ago was the EXIT fee, as opposed to initiation or ENTRY fee - i.e. you paid a lump sum on resignation (but generally not death!). This model had the merit of attracting in new members, and locking them in to the club, but equally clearly had other potential drawbacks. Any thoughts?

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