The demise of the initiation fee

[Mike_Young]

There will always be a few top tier clubs who can require an initiation fee and will maintain waiting lists.  Then there is the larger group of private clubs who are very good clubs but have had to either greatly reduce initiation fees or eliminate them all together.  IMHO for all but a few the initiation fee is over.  It had always been used to cover capital expense and was critical to the ability of these clubs to condition themselves as they were accustomed. 
For the last few years we have seen renovations, restorations of clubhouses, courses etc  and that should begin to slow down as all of those who could ,have, for the most part.  We've also seen enough clubs who had to remove or reduce initiation fees a few years ago wake up to the fact they aren't coming back.  With society as mobile as it is and with the younger guys not wanting to belong I see this as a serious problem for many private clubs in the near future.  If you have never stopped to think about just imagine a simple redo of bunkers.  A club with initiation fees may pay for the entire job in those fees and yet a good public course down the street has to handle the entire project out of green fee revenue.  Many private clubs are going to merge closer to the publics than the top tier privates.  It could change the enitre private model in USA...

[Mike Sweeney]

Many private clubs are going to merge closer to the publics than the top tier privates.  It could change the enitre private model in USA...

Maine will resist this change!! That is because they already have the U.K. model and I would guess that many will move to this type of mix:


http://www.mesga.org/club/scripts/memfac/view_memfac_list.asp?GRP=25093&NS=CLUBS

[BCowan]

Mike,


I see many doak 5-6, and a few 7s with 20-30,000 sqft clubhouses. Beautiful clubhouses that sit empty in the summer months.  I actually think it's bad to take on debt, but if a club could spend the money to knock the money pit down and put up a double wide.  Shit one of the best aspects of Kingsley is or was the ability to have a conversation with the cook while he prepared ur sandwich ect. The same is said for Dunes club, which I haven't played. Like most things too much waiting on miracles and over supply is screamed from the ignoramous fools.

[Bill_McBride]

Los dos Mikes, could this be leading toward more of the UK model for private golf?

Ben, why are those clubhouses empty in the summer, isn't that your season up north?

[Tom_Doak]

But the big clubhouses already exist.


I see the solution for in-town country clubs going more toward the Australian model ... bigger memberships and lower dues.  If 200-300 members are only keeping the course half full, the real membership number should be 500 [or even more].  Of course, that also points toward consolidation, and ultimately fewer clubs, which is what's happening in Australia as well.  At least that way the club gets to make the land deal, instead of the bank selling it out from under them.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think we are very close to it being easier to join a great club in the U.S. than the U.K. 

[Mike Sweeney]

The LuLu thread seems like an interesting update.



http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64810.0.html


Old Clubhouse:





New proposed clubhouse:





They filled in the pool, and it seems like it is becoming a golf focused club with a reasonable fee structure. Sounds great to me...

[Ben Sims]

Mike,


Mobile society. What an unusually insightful observation for a GaTech guy. 


In all seriousness, it's absolutely correct. All you need as anecdotal evidence for how it works is the military membership category. I joined Fircrest in Tacoma as a military member with no initiation fee. I paid full boat dues and food mins until it was time to leave the club. It was an absolutely perfect way to work the frequent move issue that comes with being a mil family. With companies requiring so much more travel than in years past, unless clubs start to lower the barrier to entry that comes with initiation fees, mobile young professionals will not put down the investment of thousands of dollars that they will lose when they invariably relocate.

[David_Tepper]

There are even clubs in GB&I that no longer charge what by U.S. standards were very modest initiation/joining fees. A sign of the times. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Like politics, all golf is local. In Philadelphia, my former home town, in the 'burbs of eastern Montgomery County, there exist the following private clubs of various history,course quality, quality of facilities and prestige. All of these are within 30 minutes of each other and some are virtually next door to another.
Commonwealth ( my former club) *
Talamore*
Squires#
Huntingdon Valley
Philadelphia Cricket
Philmont*
LuLu*
North Hills*
Manufacturers
Sandy Run
Cedarbrook
Blue Bell*
Meadowlands*
Old York Road
Melrose*
Whitemarsh
Green Valley
The Ace Club*
Plymouth


Ashbourne NLE


Ashbourne NLE.


*= Corporate Owned
#=Men Only





Don't know the current membership initiation fees but if I were to join a club today, I'd strongly consider LuLu. It's one of those courses that you want to play another 9 or 18 after walking off the the 18th green, just a fun course to play. Plus, with their new club house and it's a golf club, not a country club, it fits my needs.


It will be interesting to see who will survive given the value of real estate in this area and the nearby presence of Toll Bros corporate hq.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


Mobile society. What an unusually insightful observation for a GaTech guy. 


In all seriousness, it's absolutely correct. All you need as anecdotal evidence for how it works is the military membership category. I joined Fircrest in Tacoma as a military member with no initiation fee. I paid full boat dues and food mins until it was time to leave the club. It was an absolutely perfect way to work the frequent move issue that comes with being a mil family. With companies requiring so much more travel than in years past, unless clubs start to lower the barrier to entry that comes with initiation fees, mobile young professionals will not put down the investment of thousands of dollars that they will lose when they invariably relocate.

Ben,
There is a huge difference between being a GT guy and being a fan.        I do think what you did is the coming thing BUT with no initiation fees things are going to go lacking in these clubs.  Imagine just 10 members  year $10,000 initiation.  That would more than cover most capital expenditure for maintenance budgets and if they are not here where do you get it or do you change your maintenance budget?  hmmmm....

[Steve_ Shaffer]

LuLu is a no initiation/joining fee, annual fee club:


http://www.lulucc.com/Memberships/Membership_Categories.aspx


Add cart fees to those numbers and at 20-25,000 rounds/year that = up to $625,000/year. Add $ from the "Member for a Day" program and I don't think their maintenance budget will be adversely affected. More $ is possible if the new club house can maintain the previous wedding and other events catering business. 

[BCowan]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times. 

[Sean_A]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

[BCowan]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

S,


Lu lu is high on my list to play. A nice comparison would be $79 to play Belvedere member for a day or $2,000 for year.  Now that makes sense.

[John Kavanaugh]

Could we please speak like adults and drop "member for a day". 

[BCowan]

Ha, John I'm citing lu lu.  I forgot the quotes.

[James Brown]

Certainly not true in the Washington, DC area. 

[BCowan]

Certainly not true in the Washington, DC area.

I wonder why. 

[Sean_A]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

S,


Lu lu is high on my list to play. A nice comparison would be $79 to play Belvedere member for a day or $2,000 for year.  Now that makes sense.

That ratio is far closer to 20 to 1...so yes it makes much more sense, but we have to remember the course is closed a major part of the year.  That makes the pay and play option look very fine.  Thats 3 games a month over 8 months without any commitment. Much would depend on how good the club is.


Ciao

[Tim Martin]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

Sean-You don't think that LuLu will sell memberships at $3,500 for a golf course of that quality in metropolitan Philadelphia? Forget about dividing that number by the amount of rounds played and think about someone that is a 2-3 times a week golfer who will join and hang their hat there. It's absolutely a bargain. You live in the UK which is an apples to oranges comparison when it comes to club structure and pricing.

[Sean_A]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

Sean-You don't think that LuLu will sell memberships at $3,500 for a golf course of that quality in metropolitan Philadelphia? Forget about dividing that number by the amount of rounds played and think about someone that is a 2-3 times a week golfer who will join and hang their hat there. It's absolutely a bargain. You live in the UK which is an apples to oranges comparison when it comes to club structure and pricing.

Tim

For sure LuLu will sell memberships, but to folks who for sure want a membership.  But I don't think they are gonna entice many new club joiners with the fee structured the way it is unless the club is very good. 

In this case, its not apples to oranges.  The analogy across the pond is damn near spot on because there is such an open access policy.

Ciao

[BCowan]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

S,


Lu lu is high on my list to play. A nice comparison would be $79 to play Belvedere member for a day or $2,000 for year.  Now that makes sense.

That ratio is far closer to 20 to 1...so yes it makes much more sense, but we have to remember the course is closed a major part of the year.  That makes the pay and play option look very fine.  Thats 3 games a month over 8 months without any commitment. Much would depend on how good the club is.


Ciao

S,


     There are some things u are overlooking.  Belvedere has a 2 hr block each day for members only, reducing slow play problems.  The weather in Charleviox for 5 months is absolutely top notch.  The weather in SE MI ain't good in April and last 2 weeks of October is spotty.  Also July 1-Aug 15th is rather hot.


  If a course didn't block out 1-2+ hrs a day for member times I'd see little advantage to joining.  If the annual fee was no better then the one hit wonder option i wouldnt sign up, even if I dug the course. 

[Tim Martin]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

Sean-You don't think that LuLu will sell memberships at $3,500 for a golf course of that quality in metropolitan Philadelphia? Forget about dividing that number by the amount of rounds played and think about someone that is a 2-3 times a week golfer who will join and hang their hat there. It's absolutely a bargain. You live in the UK which is an apples to oranges comparison when it comes to club structure and pricing.

Tim

For sure LuLu will sell memberships, but to folks who for sure want a membership.  But I don't think they are gonna entice many new club joiners with the fee structured the way it is unless the club is very good. 

In this case, its not apples to oranges.  The analogy across the pond is damn near spot on because there is such an open access policy.

Ciao

Sean-It's basically a semi-private model where you can join or not. Did they steal that from across the pond?

[Sean_A]

The lu lu #s are awful, why would someone pay $3,500 when they can play for $60-78 without commitment? $2,400 for each adult no age progression BS and allow kids to play for free as long as one adult is member and during certain times.

I thought this as well!  That is a hard sell when I can play over 40 games a year for £3500 with no commitment.  The problem is for a more reasonable ratio of 20 to 1 that would be $175 a game.  Nobody is going to pay that for LuLu. 

Regardless...LuLu is a cool course...still one of my favourites.

Ciao

Sean-You don't think that LuLu will sell memberships at $3,500 for a golf course of that quality in metropolitan Philadelphia? Forget about dividing that number by the amount of rounds played and think about someone that is a 2-3 times a week golfer who will join and hang their hat there. It's absolutely a bargain. You live in the UK which is an apples to oranges comparison when it comes to club structure and pricing.

Tim

For sure LuLu will sell memberships, but to folks who for sure want a membership.  But I don't think they are gonna entice many new club joiners with the fee structured the way it is unless the club is very good. 

In this case, its not apples to oranges.  The analogy across the pond is damn near spot on because there is such an open access policy.

Ciao

Sean-It's basically a semi-private model where can join or not. Did they steal that from across the pond?

Tim

It would be interesting to know a bit of the history behind private clubs with open access.  I suspect back in the day the open access was far more monitored than it is today.  Warm bodies and folding are the only requirements at most places these days 

Ciao