[BCowan]

Does anyone think that maintenance and design flaws are present? 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Not necessarily. I feel more confident with some kind of wedge in my hand than a putter on shots of fifty feet or so. I know some greens where pin placement dictates where I would rather be. Sometimes it is off the green. I think much of it depends on player preference.

[David_Tepper]

Legend has it Ben Hogan always wanted to play right of the 11th green at Augusta National to take the water short & long left out of play. I recall reading somewhere he said that if he hit the 11th green with his 2nd shot, it was by mistake.

[Mike_Young]

Hole #11 Country Club of Charleston. 

[Greg Chambers]

The course I used to play every day...the first hole had a pin position on the right side that if you ended up off the green you had a better chance of holing the shot or getting down in two than if you ended up short, left, or long.  I thought it was a pretty cool feature.  Certainly a local knowledge type of advantage.




Oh, and...better than, not better then.

[Matt_Cohn]

This happens at Del Monte during tournaments when holes are located just at the top of a false front, or on very steep spots near the front of greens, so if you're long you have a terrifying downhill putt. Sometimes you simply cannot get a ball to stop on the green between the front edge and the hole.


It's interesting and strategic, but also what happens when greens are designed for a 6 on the stimpmeter and played at 10 or 11!


I wouldn't say it's fun, but I'm not entirely against it on a very occasional basis.

[Thomas Dai]

Nothing wrong with using the 15th club in the bag.
atb

[Niall C]

Did Hogan not also do something similar at the 16th Carnoustie in his one Open there ?

The other week I was a scorer at the Open qualifier at Gailes on the par 3 12th hole. The hole from the back tees is 220 yards and on the day the wind (2 club) and rain was in the players face. The green is also a plateau green that is surrounded by rubbish at back and sides so any miss either pin high or long could produce a big number.

Of the first 19 groups through, no one even went for the green they all played short and went for the chip and putt. Later when the wind eased off a bit they started to go for it although many still laid up. In the context of the round (next hole is a short driveable par 4 for these guys) then I think theres nothing wrong with that.

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:


Why would that be a design flaw?


I have built many holes where you can be better off missing just off the green [in short grass, on the correct side of the hole] than aiming for the middle of the green and missing to the wrong side [having to putt over a big hump].  At Lost Dunes, there are several holes like that on any given day, depending on hole locations.  At Crystal Downs [or Augusta, or Merion], there are a few holes where you're better missing just short, than having a "green in regulation" but being above the hole with a steep downhill putt.


For me it's just an attempt to make the golfer redefine what "playing safe" means, and to make him think a little.

[Michael Felton]

I guess that's a classic example of thinking outside the box. I think a lot of people just assume that you should hit it in the fairway and then hit it on the green. Sometimes, you can be better off missing both. That said, there is a difference between deliberately playing short because you don't want to risk missing the green in one of the other spots and deliberately missing the green because you really think you're better off missing it than hitting it. I have a friend who played on the European Tour for a bit and I asked him about the greens in regulation stat. He said it was a little misleading because you're not always trying to hit the green. If the pin is cut tight to the edge and a 20 foot downhill putt with little hope of stopping it is all that you'll have if you hit the green, but a 15 foot chip from the fringe uphill if you miss it, the pros would aim to miss the green in that situation.

[JESII]

Hole #11 Country Club of Charleston.

Disagree...once you miss it with your first it becomes exponentially more difficult to hit it with each additional shot...


Speaking from experience.


It may be the best example of a green better to try to miss than to try to hit though...

[Jim Franklin]

I forget which hole at Pine Tree, but there is a par 3 that my caddie told me to always miss short right of the green if the pin was in a certain spot. I hit my shot where he told me and the other three hit the green left of the hole. I made par, they made bogies, and bitched about it. I thought it was a pretty cool design feature.

[Mike_Young]

Hole #11 Country Club of Charleston.

Disagree...once you miss it with your first it becomes exponentially more difficult to hit it with each additional shot...


Speaking from experience.


It may be the best example of a green better to try to miss than to try to hit though...

Now you have really confused me...

[BCrosby]

There was a thread back in the day in which Tom Paul (as I recall) thought it would be a cool idea to design a hole on which the best place to miss the green was over it.


It's not uncommon to see a green where laying up short can be the best play. You don't see many where going long is the best play.


Bob

[Kalen Braley]

Delta View golf course in Pittsburg where Dr. MacK allegedly designed the original 9.


Had a medium par 3 where the green was two distinct tiers that were seperated right and left with respect to the line of play, (instead of the usual back upper and front lower tier).  When the pin was on the lower left tier, you could hit your tee shot 15 from the hole on the upper tier and be completely screwed.  Only way to stop the ball is to hit the hole or it was going off the green.  Certainly better to miss that green left and have a backstop to chip into.

[Bob Montle]

The par 5 15th at Quail Hollow is an example.  The ideal (uphill) 2nd shot goes into the sand bunker fronting the green.  From there about 90% of the pro's get up and down for a birdie.

[Thomas Dai]

Bobby Lockes Hollow left if the 14th/Calamity at Royal Portrush.
Atb

[Peter Pallotta]

Well, if the shot lands on the green but funnels/slides off into the fringe, at least you know you'll have an uphill chip or putt coming back. That's always comforting. I suppose you could intentionally aim for that lower-lying fringe, but why would you?

[Tom_Doak]

You don't see many where going long is the best play.

Actually, there are more than you think, it's just that not many people ever figure them out.


The 1st and 10th and 12th at Oakmont would be good examples.  The Redan at North Berwick [long left] is another.


It's actually a very under-utilized strategy.  Taking the first at Oakmont as an example, lots of players scream "unfair" when they hit a shot into the middle of the green and it goes off the back.  Overall, though, this leads to much lower scores than trying to sneak an approach onto the front edge and coming up short, or missing in the rough to either side, where it's almost impossible to get up and down.

[Sean_A]

Jeepers, laying up from loads of places is often the smarter play for scoring purposes.  I don't see why playing short, long, left or right cant be offered as an obvious miss choice by archies.  I always thought laying up at Grosse Ile's 5th was a good option if the likely outcome of playing to the green was winding up on the wrong side of the hump.  Same goes for the 6th...see below.


Ciao

[Mike Treitler]

Depending on where the pin is... #14 at Calumet in Chicago usually fits this description.

[Carl Rogers]

the 3rd at Riverfront has this preferred play in multiple variations depending on pin location.

[Steve Lang]

Does anyone think that maintenance and design flaws are present?

Not really... and hard to know unless one plays a course often.  On walking away from some holes, typically on one off plays, I've thought maintenance rarely, e.g., like inconsistent rough transitions or edgy pin placements, while design very rarely, as folks have said, its called local knowledge for a reason. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

There was a thread back in the day in which Tom Paul (as I recall) thought it would be a cool idea to design a hole on which the best place to miss the green was over it.


It's not uncommon to see a green where laying up short can be the best play. You don't see many where going long is the best play.


Bob

The 2nd at Wyantenuck CC in Gt. Barrington Ma (Pryde) has a long par 3 w/a ground level green (blind) that slopes away from the line of play - everyone plays long, then putts or chips uphill to the hole.


Played Stamford GC (some Travis) in Stamford NY w/Mark Chalfant yesterday, and two of their long par threes are similar.




The 5th at Copake CC (Emmet?) is another 200+ yarder w/a crowned green where the smart play is to lay it in front and chip/putt.


All fun holes.

[Ruediger Meyer]

In the 1959 US Open at Winged Foor Billy Casper laid up on the Par 3 3rd in all four rounds. Made Par every time.

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