[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally...I don't understand how we disagree, but thats okay, I agree with you even if you don't get it. 

Ciao

That's what I like to hear Sean.


At least we agree that we are in disagreement about whether I think you agree or disagree with me. Even if we do really agree.

[Sean_A]

Ally...I don't understand how we disagree, but thats okay, I agree with you even if you don't get it. 

Ciao

That's what I like to hear Sean.


At least we agree that we are in disagreement about whether I think you agree or disagree with me. Even if we do really agree.

Sounds like Dutch to me.


Ciao

[Pete_Pittock]

Then Bandon Dunes is the fairest of the rotation for the Coos County Open?


I've only watched the first hour of coverage. My recollection of Royal Birkdale is from 06/2000, and my thoughts for the tee shot on #1 was to miss the big ridge on the left which promised a lost or unplayable. Seems that the wind exacerbated the conundrum.

[Matthew Essig]

The Late/Early Draw with much easier conditions yesterday and today...

[Mark_Fine]

Peter,

You might be serious with your comments or playing devil's advocate but you know golf was never meant to be "fair" - not the game and not the playing fields.  Why is a perfectly placed 300 yard drive worth the same number of strokes as a 6" tap in putt?  Why is it that two well struck irons to a tucked pin can result in outcomes where one just carries a deep bunker and finishes next to the hole and the other is a yard shorter and buries under the lip?  How can two drives in the fairway end up with one ball sitting perfectly and one in a divot?  How can a tee shot struck right at the hole hit the pin and carom into a bunker?   The examples are endless.  Golf was not meant to be fair or unfair and those examples should not be described that way.  The same goes for the courses themselves.  However, that doesn't mean that there aren't poorly designed golf holes and/or courses that are set up over the top.  There are but one should never use the word fair or unfair to describe them as the word/s should not be associated with golf. 

[Michael Tamburrini]

Butch Harmon (doing the commentary on Sky) hit the nail on the head with what has been bugging me about the course.  When he was praising it he said "every bunker is in just the right place."  And that's my irritation about Birkdale.


The bunkers are all nice.  The fairways seem nice.  The rough is reasonably sparse and without huge unfair patches. The greens are all set in hollows, with little wrinkles of land around them and a few bunkers.  It's a nice course.  Everything is just where it should be.


I'd rather it had a few odd bunkers or a blind shot - but I can see why the professionals like it.  It does everything they expect.


I reckon someone will shoot 61 or 62 tomorrow. 

[BCrosby]

Michael -

I had a similar reaction to Butch's comment. I'm dubious per se of a claim that "bunkers are in just the right place".  The comment seems to assume that there is an ideal grid that a golf course should follow.  And that RB follows that grid.

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - I don't think (I hope) that I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Let me put it this way: there is a whole group of professional golfers (reasonably smart I assume, especially about the game itself and the playing of it) and a whole group of media types (similarly of reasonable intelligence) who use the word "fair" to describe the golf course. Now, they must mean *something* by that term -- and whether we agree or not with either the term or their use of it, I think it worth exploring *what* they mean by it.
I think it worth it especially because Birkdale seems to me to be a very fine golf course, one that - as we've seen already - allows for and plays differently in various wind/weather conditions.
To put it very simply: I don't understand how so many of us here can be so sure that so many people there are so totally misguided/misinformed about the golf course they are actually playing this week, over there.
Birkdale, as has been mentioned constantly, does not have the quirk/randomness of some other links courses. But so what? Don't we want many different kinds of golf courses in the world? And, if many folks who are playing that course this week describe the *opposite* of quirk/randomness as more *fair*, it doesn't seem to me to be all that far off.   
Peter

[Kalen Braley]

In a bit of side news, if only it was this easy to play better!!   


http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/caddie-jp-rory-what-f-are-you-doing/?cid=rr_trending_p3

[Mark_Fine]

Peter,
I understand what you are saying.  I still stand by my belief that "fair" is a very poor word to be used to describe a golf course.  Most architects cringe when they hear that word 
Mark

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

When absolutely everyone agrees on something, then I know it's time to disagree. In this case, two architects and one golf pro have already spoken on behalf of all of us, and of the smart/sophisticated  point of view. But what's wrong with the competitors wanting -- at least once every few years/Opens -- results that are (most and most likely) commensurate with the quality of their shots? The best golfers on the planet can certainly 'read' a golf course -- whether it's Birkdale or St Andrews or Sawgrass or Ballyneal -- much better than any of the rest of us can, and they can choose and execute the smartest option/strategy on any given hole and on any design more fully and consistently than we can even dream of. Can we honestly blame professional golfers for appreciating a course that fosters a championship test at its most fundamental/essential level, ie that rewards those who best manifest over 72 holes the very skill-set that is inherent in the game? In that context, "fair" might not be the perfect term/description, but it strikes me as a pretty good one (even if, as Bob C will point out, it's a category mistake).

I agree with you 100% Peter.
I have no problem or shame in saying.....and have done on this site many times...in saying that Royal Birkdale is my favourite course on the Open rotation, because to me it plays with the least element of quirk and possibility of poor bounces.....to those whose shudder at that concept, I understand that is a part of playing links golf, but when I have a scorecard in my back pocket......Birkdale is my favourite

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

2 of the first 5 have hit it out of bounds two others nearly out, one ball in the fairway out of 6...


Chris Wood pars one and has a two shot lead after one hole, and O'Meara is 4 back


Group three, two nearly OB and a third OB


hardly seems fair.....


I need to sleep but it's hard to pull away

Big difference between "fair" and simply shitty shots that go thirty yards offline ....those drives that went OOB...would be shitty shots anywhere.
Let's not confuse the two concepts.

[Garland Bayley]

The most fair course would be on the plains of Dakota where you can't even determine the continental divide without fine surveying equipment. All flat through the green and all flat greens. No bunkers, as it would be unfair for someone to get in one, while others did not. And, the rules need to change to allow free drops from divots. At least it must be a walking course as cart paths could ruin the fairness. No rough either.

Pietro, I'm sure you would be chomping at the bit to move to Dakota to play such a fair facility all the time.

[Garland Bayley]

Of course another way to look at it is that if you are judging fairness,  you just are not that good. Certainly not as good as Ben Hogan who used to design his strategy for playing a course to take out the rub of the green.

Of course, his competition used to complain it was no fair when he entered a tournament, as it meant they had little chance of winning then.

The average player should be the one complaining about fairness,  because after picking the best place to hit a ball, it seldom goes there subjecting the average player to tons of unfair results.

However,  in my experience it is always the better players that complain about unfair.

[Thomas Dai]

Wasn't it Muirfield that used to be described as the 'fairest test' on The Open rota?
atb

[Sean_A]

Sean - I just don't think it's as awful as everyone (even the golfwrx folks) seems to think it is. If, for example, being able to hit and precisely control a drawing 280 yard 3 wood is a legitimate test for the world's best golfers, and if two such golfers both hit that shot and hit it well and hit it to roughly -- but not exactly -- the same area on the left side of the fairway (let's say, the ideal spot/line), I think it "fair" that both golfers have roughly if not exactly the same approach shot left. Conversely, I think it could be considered "unfair" if some random hump or centre-line bunker or severe cant in the fairway meant that only a yard or two difference in where two smartly-aimed and well-struck tee shots landed made the difference between a routine par and a hard-fought-for bogey. Yes, that latter scenario too is "golf", and maybe even uniquely links golf -- but again, if every 5-7 years the pros play a course that seems to them 'fairer" than that, it seems all good to me.
Peter

Pietro

I will never agree with same outcome for same shot golf theory of design.  My big problem with that approach is the logical conclusion that if "fair" is something worth striving for then flat courses are the answer.  Every bit of contour and slope added to a course reduces the element of fairness...so why introduce those elements?  That said, it takes all sorts of courses to keep people happy...if you want to play a fair course what does it matter to me?

I am in the camp that doesn't believe Birkdale is anything like the "fair" course as touted by yourself.  I don't buy the fairways are flat theory because I have seen Birkdale in person. I saw plenty of contour and slope effect the outcome of nearly identical shots in different ways.  Its all relative. 

Like Mark...whatever the word you want to use, "fair" is absolutely not the correct word.

Ciao

[Matthew Essig]

Or, as other people have described it, it is very "Spiethy."

    

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