[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
What "driveable" par fours do you like (assuming they are not quite driveable for you)? The hole at Shooting Star doesn't have a ton of trouble in front, you can hit driver and have a chip or pitch. Its not the hole's fault that you prefer a 100 yard shot to a 30 yard one.

Its tough to be all things to all people. Some holes are probably more interesting to a player of your length, but can be rather dull for a bomber that can take it over the trouble. I think the Dormie hole is more interesting than this one, but I think you're confusing your play (and preference to play to your strengths) with the hole itself.

[Mark Saltzman]

Andy,

Maybe I'm not properly making my point (or maybe I'm just wrong), but remember, this hole is 337 yards.  So considering the elevation, that's like 305 yards.  Similarly, the hole at Dormie was about 305 yards, and uphill.  So for someone like me who hits driver about 250, I can't leave just a pitch, so the question becomes what do I hit off the tee? Yes, maybe I'll just try to play to an ideal yardage, but is there anything else dictating strategy? My problem with Dormie and SS is that there's nothing... it's just fairway.  I can hit whatever club I want off the tee and I have nothing to think about.  That's why I find the hole boring.

I really like Ballyneal's 7th.  No, I can't reach the green, but with a good drive I can just carry those bunkers and leave a pitch into the green, but if I don't pull it off, I'm dead in those bunkers.  Or I can play to the wide part of the fairway with hybrid.  Though those bunkers are not in play for bombers, I think that hole still has plenty of strategic interest for them.

I really like 3 at Dormie.  Lots of choices on what to hit off the tee. Now that hole is a bit longer, but I think would still be reachable by some (I only had 65 yards in and there are plenty of people that outdrive me by that much).

I really like 15 at Palmetto too.

[Andy Troeger]

Fair enough--perhaps there could be a bunker or something out there on either course. I think there's plenty of interest just in the angles at Dormie. Approaching over the bunker is going to be a challenge for most, unless you're really just that good with a wedge.

I like the holes you mention, but ironically #3 at Dormie is optionless for me off the tee. I layup and hit wedge, and there's no point in considering any other option. The green makes the hole. The seventh at Ballyneal is a cool hole all around, and there are enough tees and options there to create interesting situations pretty much regardless of ability. However, I still doubt I'd hit many drivers there in the long run. Neither hole is nearly as driveable as the ones you didn't care for. They just are more challenging/interesting for the layup somewhere then hit wedge option.

[Brad Isaacs]

Skiing the Hobacks in corn snow, or playing shooting star, an awesome place to be!  Hole 6 is ok but 7   The green on six was very hard for me to read, and made it a more interesting hole than it otherwise would be.
Seven seemed out of place. It is weak, especially when compared to the rest of the course which is truly one of my favorites.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 7: Par 4, 337 Yards




Kind of a simple short par-4.  Pretty undulating green, but I don't think there's enough to entice players who can't get near the green to hit driver. 

Not sure of the purpose of those fairway bunkers.









Hole 8: Par 4, 455 Yards




Ideal tee shots are up the left and there is tons of room to bail out right.




Approaching from the left is much, much easier, especially to a right pin.




Green from left shows the severe false-front.






Hole 9: Par 5, 545 Yards




I just realized that there are probably too many cape holes that move left around water (4, 9, 15, 18).  This one is a mid-length par-5 with some more aiming bunkers down the right -- though they keep the bombers honest and force them to make a decision.





Interesting second shot decision.  Play to the right, away from the water, and you are faced with a semi-blind approach over a bunker.  Challenge the water and you have just a simple pitch into the green.






The view from a lay-up on the right side of the fairway -- look down the throat of the green, but it's semi-blind -- it's even more blind if you bailed out a bit more.




After a perfect lay-up down the left.  Those little run-offs short of the green are very bad spots.  The slope up to the green is very steep and the green is crowned, and there are run-offs long.  It's not easy to find the green from those run-offs.




Behind the green.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 10: Par 3, 186 Yards




Kind of a straight forward par-3, but the peak in bunker short of the green creates a very cool visual, making the green look like it is a wave.









Hole 11: Par 5, 548 Yards




This is a GREAT par-5.  Lots of choices on the tee shot.  The centreline bunker is perfectly placed, about 240 yards to reach and about 280 to get over -- you have to make a decision to lay-up or challenge it.  If you lay-up, the second shot is completely blind.  Challenge it successfully and you find a downslope, leaving you with about 230 into the green.  Playing up the left leaves the better angle, but the longer approach.




Now this is where the hole gets great.  If you want to lay back to 125 yards, there is tons of width.  But, if you want to get near the green in two, you better pick your line carefully.  The bunker well short of the green catches shots that bail out and leaves an almost impossible recovery.  Even shots that miss just left of the green leave a really tough shot. 






After a perfect lay-up, you look straight up the throat of the green.  Open in front, but note the crowned nature of the green.




The chipping area left of the green seems like a good place to miss, but it is really tough to get up and down.





Hole 12: Par 4, 481 Yards




This is another very strong hole.  There is tons of room to bail right, but the ideal line challenges the water/bunkers on the left.






The view after a tee shot up the right.  From here you must carry the false-front and back-right pins are not accessible.




The view from a drive up the left... look up the throat of the green.




This pictures give some idea of the wild contouring on the 12th green.  Really bold.




From right of the green shows what The Faz was saying -- missing right to a back pin is an easy chip.  What he doesn't say is missing right to a front pin is just dead.

[Andy Troeger]

I think #11 is the best on the course and perhaps one of Fazio's best par fives overall. Good descriptions--a lot going on with the centerline bunker and interesting features on the approach. As mentioned, the twelfth is a strong four with a good green. Its a good place for a tough four coming after a risk/reward five and before the short four 13th. Good pacing to this part of the course. The bunker cutting into the front of the tenth green makes that hole a little more interesting than it might have been otherwise.

[Mark Saltzman]

Andy,

You didn't comment on 7.  I said why I didn't like it... why did you like it?

And did you notice that there were 4 holes that move left around water (4, 9, 15, 18) -- I didn't until I started doing this tour.  I didn't bother me when I played, but do you think it's a flaw or a non-factor?

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
I'm not sure we're really that far apart on 7. I don't think its a super duper awesome hole, just not a dud and not one of the weakest on the course. I don't see a ton of difference in quality between it and 13, for example. Its probably not a great hole for a good player who isn't real long, but the average golfer has the fairway bunker in play (the guy I was with found that bunker) and the green surrounds are interesting enough to challenge the guy who hits driver but doesn't hit the green. Its a good change of pace given that 5, 6, and 8 are pretty tough. I'm not sure what I think of #8. I like the idea of it, but the carry on the second is pretty severe for the average golfer.

I think the course overuses water as a hazard in general, and there's some similarity between the holes you mention. The angles are different and I think the shots required are a bit different, so its not a huge detriment, but it takes away from variety a bit. I think we played the 9th farther forward than the normal marker, so it became an odd hole because I could drive it further than the real landing area. That also lessened the angle quite a bit. Fifteen doesn't really bend until after the drive. Four is a position tee shot, which creates a bit of difference too. That's probably also why its not especially noticeable when playing.

[Jordan Wall]

I thought 7 was quite boring and uninteresting, and just squeezed into the corner of the property.  I didn't like it all, it was the most bland hole on the course and frankly could be found on and run of the mill public course.

I really liked 9, 10, and 11.  The 9th and 11th play in opposite directions, which is fun because one is reachable and the other forces you to think about the best lay up - both holes offer interesting lay up options.  The 10th is neat not only because of the interesting bunkering and green contours, but because the tee is right in front of the clubhouse and the pool, which by the way can also provide some decent views/company.  Cool little hole.

[Tim Nugent]

I'm glad Mark ran with the oldest course first. It shows a jarring conflict in the abrupt lines of the mountan ridges with the imposed round,smooth edges in vogue at the time (circa 1970).  The next three do a much better job of blending into the backdrop.  Palmer even goes so far as to import white snad to immulate the patches of snow.
RE:#7, beyond the green are several long ridge-rolls. Although one was brought into the fairway, perhaps if the fairway was more rumpled, were one would never be certain of his lie, it may be more thought provoking off the tee.  Also, concurr with the fairway binkering. It places too heavy of a weight on the right side of the hole, without anything balancing it on the left.  Losing the 1st on the right and putting in a center-front green bunker might help.

[Mark Saltzman]

Hole 13: Par 4, 335 Yards



Decent short par-4.  Some temptation for the bombers to hit driver and get it up by the green.  Lots of room over the bunker on the right, but it leaves a difficult, uphill and blind approach.








Hole 14: Par 4, 523 Yards



Fairly standard cape hole.  Certainly not as strong as the first long par 4 (the 5th), but a good enough hole.











Hole 15: Par 5, 644 Yards



Another cape hole and this is one tough par-5.  Long forced carry from the back two sets of tees (about 230 to reach land, 250 to the fairway).  Carry once you move up gets a lot shorter and the angle changes completely.

One thing that may be noticed in these pictures is all the small flies.  They love to hang out by the large body of water, and though this isn't really part of the golf course, they certainly detract from its enjoyment!

Back tee:




Middle Tee:




The hole continues to cape and one must once again make a choice on line.  Most players will play right of the bunker that feeds into the water.




The approach from 170 is scary!





From 100 the approach is still scary.




Tranquility (except for the bugs)

[Mark Saltzman]

...somehow I forgot to post the last 3 holes 

Hole 16: Par 4, 372 Yards




Tee shot over a diagonal hazard.  Much more room on the left than it appears.  Back two sets of tees are from angle on which picture was taken, but all forward play from the other side of the hazard.




Approach from right is played over water (shouldn't be in play) but provides easier access to pin positions guarded by the left bunker.




Approach from left:




One of the most extremely contoured greens on the course.  Approach will be with a short-iron so green contours can be used as back-stops, but missing one-tier long is dead.





Hole 17: Par 3, 266 Yards




Hope you made a birdie on 16 because the last two holes are tough!  There is a very cool visual as the green and bunkers mimic the appearance of the mountain in the distance.

This picture is taken from a 200-yard tee.  There is a 260+ yard tee that is lowered and to the right... no picture but it looks impossible from there.




There is plenty of room to bail-out to the left, but the shape of the run-off makes recovery from here difficult.





Hole 18: Par 4, 519 Yards



As is the case with most Fazio designs, the finisher is a brute that doglegs around a hazard.  If you're playing the correct set of tees, the line will be somewhere over the left fairway bunker -- all depends on how brave you are.  For many this will be a three-shot hole and there is plenty of room to the right for those wishing to bail-out with less than driver.




The approach is just as difficult as the tee shot.  Once again there is plenty of room to bail right, though a recovery from that side is quite difficult as it must carry a deep green side bunker.




Green from right:




18 from Clubhouse:

[Sean Leary]

17 from the back tee looks absurd. He built a back tee at my course equally as absurd.

Great looking golf course tough...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mark,

You will have to return. Snake River has reopened. It should give Shooting Star a run for the money;D

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Wyoming%E2%80%99s-Snake-River-course-reopens-after-fiveyear-closure/3128/Default.aspx#.U5E_zSgy-ws


http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/318320

[Amol Yajnik]

Mark,

You will have to return. Snake River has reopened. It should give Shooting Star a run for the money;D

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Wyoming%E2%80%99s-Snake-River-course-reopens-after-fiveyear-closure/3128/Default.aspx#.U5E_zSgy-ws


http://www.thegolfwire.com/story/318320

I realize that I'm bringing this thread back from the dead, but I'm headed to Jackson Hole at the end of September.  Looks like I can get access to Snake River through the hotel that we are staying at.  Has anyone played that course since it reopened?  I also may be able to get onto Shooting Star as well, so that would be 2 fun days of golf wrapped around everything else to do up there.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()