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Emile Bonfiglio

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2017, 04:26:15 PM »
Great article..my biggest take away was this

"Now in his midfifties, Doak sports a boyish haircut that requires no combing—just a small pat of the head to tamp it down when he removes his hat—and he carries the slight paunch of middle age. "
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2017, 04:37:20 PM »
I feel the fired super should have been given right of reply. My apologies if he was and did not take it up.

The way I read it the supt thing is between the supt and the owner.  I don't see where TD has anything to do with that. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ryan Coles

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2017, 04:45:10 PM »
I feel the fired super should have been given right of reply. My apologies if he was and did not take it up.

The way I read it the supt thing is between the supt and the owner.  I don't see where TD has anything to do with that.


I disagree. The author covered the topic, gave Doak a say, the boss a say, but no chance for the super.


Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2017, 05:22:05 PM »

Can't say I expected a quote from Batman on this thread!


I hope it was the good Batman ... whichever that was  :)


Tom,


It was the first of the Good ones.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-zNnq7kHMI

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2017, 06:01:12 PM »

The way I read it the supt thing is between the supt and the owner.  I don't see where TD has anything to do with that.


I disagree. The author covered the topic, gave Doak a say, the boss a say, but no chance for the super.


Actually, I didn't have any say about that.  When asked about it I could not even recall the conversation ... I just had to agree that it might have happened.  But I didn't get the complete context from that.  As far as I was told, by both the superintendent and the client, the superintendent resigned ... to take a job that had been offered to him elsewhere.  So I think the whole thing was mischaracterized in the article, only to illustrate a part of my personality.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2017, 06:20:22 PM »
"The only other designer who had the same effect was C. B. Macdonald, whose ideas about classic design kicked off the boom in the early twentieth century”.

It's proper that this marker was laid down by Goodwin, and affirmed by Whitten.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ryan Coles

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2017, 06:34:41 PM »

The way I read it the supt thing is between the supt and the owner.  I don't see where TD has anything to do with that.


I disagree. The author covered the topic, gave Doak a say, the boss a say, but no chance for the super.


Actually, I didn't have any say about that.  When asked about it I could not even recall the conversation ... I just had to agree that it might have happened.  But I didn't get the complete context from that.  As far as I was told, by both the superintendent and the client, the superintendent resigned ... to take a job that had been offered to him elsewhere.  So I think the whole thing was mischaracterized in the article, only to illustrate a part of my personality.


Which is sort of worse for the super. Not only did he not get to provide a quote, he was described as having been fired when it now looks as if he wasn't. Collateral damage I suppose, in an otherwise interesting article.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 17
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2017, 06:36:56 PM »
"The only other designer who had the same effect was C. B. Macdonald, whose ideas about classic design kicked off the boom in the early twentieth century”.

It's proper that this marker was laid down by Goodwin, and affirmed by Whitten.


The author teaches creative writing.

Greg Gilson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2017, 07:59:20 PM »
I greatly enjoyed the read. Thanks to Michael for the article & to Tom for the insights.

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2017, 08:25:17 PM »
 :D :-*


I've been fortunate to talk golf with Tom Doak on a few occasions , and play golf together as well.  It's good that he's not afraid to take a position on this site or the Confidential Guide that calls a spade a spade. He's not always right , but I'd venture to say he really "gets it" almost all the time .  His body of work seems proof enough for me , but our discussions convince me further.   


Talking golf with people isn't easy sometimes , particularly that there's really no right or wrong when it comes to preference   in design. Many golfers are quick to view design based on what fits their game , or simply on the maintenance and conditioning of the course that they are discussing. So , if you tend to have strong opinions relative to whats good or bad it will surely rankle someone .


I enjoyed the article . It may or may not capture too much of what makes Tom tick , but it shows an appreciation of his love and devotion to the game .

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2017, 09:38:39 PM »

"The only other designer who had the same effect was C. B. Macdonald, whose ideas about classic design kicked off the boom in the early twentieth century”.
It's proper that this marker was laid down by Goodwin, and affirmed by Whitten.

The author teaches creative writing.

The author made a very perceptive remark.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 09:40:55 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Frank M

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2017, 10:40:26 PM »
I've personally never liked shackles. Some say to a fault.

If there is one golf course architect I'd like to play a round of golf with it would be Mr. Doak. I doubt Tom would have time for this sap, but this essay gives me a bit more insight into someone I've always thought to be one of the few interesting people in golf.

Matthew Hauth

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2017, 11:36:32 PM »
A great read indeed. Thanks for sharing this.


This reminds me that I need to get back out to Michigan.
SEAMUS GOLF

"The object of a bunker or trap is not only to punish a physical mistake, to punish lack of control, but also to punish pride and egotism." – Charles Blair Macdonald

Peter Pallotta

Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2017, 01:15:44 AM »
Not only a good article but a new kind of article, at least for gca - the portrait of the artist as a young man hitherto reserved for writers or painters or musicians.
I've long thought (as my posts over the years indicate) that character not only shapes destiny but the work as well - in this case, golf courses. Those kinds of posts/threads never got much traction, but I'm convinced that the personal heirarchy of values held by various architects is the key that defines/explains their designs.
Ross, Behr, CBM, Crump, Simpson, Dye, Colt, Fowler, Doak, Hanse, Nicklaus, Kidd, Braur, Young, Tillinghast - each with a distinct personal narrative, each with a deep seated heirarchy of values. It's why gca criticism and rankings are not only difficult to do but also quite misguided and actually rather pointless:
I'd never (or I hope only rarely) presume to judge a man's value system; why am I so quick to judge/denigrate the work that grows out of that value system as inevitably as plant from its seed?
From what I can tell, Mr Nicklaus, for example, has known love and support and faith and wealth and success virtually his entire life, and his golf courses reflect this life/history and the values that go with it; there was no drive/need in him to become a revolutionary, no goal more lofty than an honest craftsman's desire to satisfy his client and to please his target audience, and an honest businessman's desire to see his venture grow.
That JN's courses don't meet my particular needs is in a very real sense irrelevant - and indeed that fact says more about my narrative and heirarchy of values than it does JN's talent and taste. And yet along with almost everyone else here I continue to rank and rate and nitpick almost endlessly and at the drop of a hat.
Looking back at my participation here over the years, even at some of what I thought of then as my most interesting/insightful comments and assessments, I find myself much more embarrassed by it than proud.
One of the valuable things about this essay/article on Tom is how it serves as a reminder that every 'outer work' begins with an 'inner life' - an inner life that I think is sacred, and certainly of much greater worth than any golf course ever built (even the 10s!).
As the Michael Moriarty character says at the end of the wonderful Bang the Drum Slowly (after having finally understood the challenges that Robert DeNiro's character has faced):
"From now on, I rag no one."
It will make for very dull posts (and God willing many fewer of them), but it will reflect my own heirarchy of values much better.
Peter
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 01:59:30 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2017, 08:00:31 AM »
I'm really not interested in any psycho-analysis of Tom Doak - primarily because from my experience he's a damned good guy - that's all I need to know.   I had the opportunity to play three rounds with Tom and enjoy a couple of meals with him in upstate New York a few years ago and while our personalities are quite different I enjoyed his company immensely.  Don't know and don't care if he'd say the same thing, but he tolerated my sophomoric comments and hapless golf game quite well.    I have a soft spot for anyone that's plain spoken.

Mike


Bogey-That was a fun day back in 2014 at Glen Falls CC. As smitten as you and I were with the golf course it was clear that Tom felt the same way. I certainly enjoyed the trip around and realized rather quickly that the lens he is looking through is quite a bit different than mine. Finally I enjoyed the article and found it both interesting and informative.

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2017, 10:00:25 AM »
Well said Peter.


Mike C's approach is not one we are accustomed to seeing about a golf architect. It is not the usual "take stuff from his resume, get some quotes and print it" piece.


As you suggest, there is a "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" aspect to the essay, which is the only way to get at someone as original as Tom. His edges are integral to that originality. I don't think you have one without the other.


It is probably premature to debate Tom's place in the history of the discipline, but I have my views. He is still a relatively young man with lots of runway ahead of him. If Tom is tired of the 'minimalist' thing he was so instrumental in starting, I can't wait to see what comes next.


A final note. Mike's essay talks a lot about The Loop. It is one of the most remarkable new courses I've seen. Tom at his most original. My guess is that its place in the architectural firmament will only ascend over the years. I hope it continues to get the attention it deserves.


Bob           

Jim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2017, 11:07:32 AM »
Most interesting parts of the article for me:

Tara Iti is the most beautiful course in the world;

Doak new what he wanted out of life at a very early age, and rigorously pursued it in a pretty unique way;

Keiser finds it more comfortable working with C&C, because they are more adept at social niceties.

Bob -- I think if Tom retired today, he would be counted among the top several architects ever, with close to 10 world top 100 courses.


John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 17
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2017, 11:29:44 AM »
Aren't we reaching saying that Tom started minimalism? I honestly don't see anything he has done that wasn't done before at a course like Prairie Dunes. Maybe Tom brought back or popularized minimalism...Invented it, not so much.


If pressed I might call his work...Pete Dye without the budget. Given Dye's earlier work, quite the compliment.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2017, 11:42:22 AM »
Aren't we reaching saying that Tom started minimalism? I honestly don't see anything he has done that wasn't done before at a course like Prairie Dunes. Maybe Tom brought back or popularized minimalism...Invented it, not so much.


If pressed I might call his work...Pete Dye without the budget. Given Dye's earlier work, quite the compliment.


John:


Who said I invented minimalism?  Certainly not me, and I didn't think the article really did, either.  I just saw it lying around on the ground, and decided to pick it up and run with it.


I did write The Minimalist Manifesto at one point [1993, I think], but it did not exactly attain the readership or Marx and Engels.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 17
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2017, 12:52:14 PM »
I'll concede that invented was a stretch tho not that far from started or discovered. Just above our most eloquent and learned contributor added..


"It is probably premature to debate Tom's place in the history of the discipline, but I have my views. He is still a relatively young man with lots of runway ahead of him. If Tom is tired of the 'minimalist' thing he was so instrumental in starting, I can't wait to see what comes next."


To give Bob credit he was probably referring to the marketing ploy modern minimalism has become.

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2017, 04:49:02 PM »
No, I meant what I said. Tom will be on the short list of great architects in any decent history of the discipline, as others have noted above. That is not because he invented the term 'minimalism' (I think Whitten did (?)), but because he was a leader in making it a credible approach to gca. And that's a pretty big deal. 

First, as you note, the term has become very popular. It has also been bastardized, but that is hardly Tom's fault. It has come to mean a course with a certain 'look' and sold as such. I don't think that is what Tom is getting at all.

I think what Tom is getting at (he can correct me if I am missing the mark) has to do with learning a particular kind of lesson from classic courses like TOC or NB or Prairie Dunes or Myopia that others seemed to have missed.

Specifically, the lesson to be taken from those sorts of courses has less to do with their look than with the quality of the golf they engender. They were built with limited budgets, primitive construction equipment, bad irrigation and drainage options. Which left them with crazy micro contours, humps and bumps, native (sometimes nasty) vegetation, ragged hazards and so forth. But those features are part of why we like playing those courses so much. They help make the golf more fun, challenging and less predictable than usual.
 
So Tom's originality, I think, is not so much in inventing a new sort of golf architecture but rather in his insights into one of the ways the great classical courses from the Golden Age and earlier work so well and then applying that in the field. After three or four decades of courses built post-WWII that aimed to be big, expensive and anything but minimalist, Tom came along and made minimalism a credible alternative. Again, based less on novel design ideas than on applying lessons gleaned from older courses that had not been gleaned by very many other people. What most people at the time saw as a liability of those courses, Tom saw as an important asset. (BTW, I think Dye took different sorts of lessons from UK courses than Tom did. A topic for another thread.)

(To be clear, I am not saying that the Golden Age guys intended to be minimalists. They would have found the concept very odd. They did what they could do within the constraints they had to deal with. Their courses just look minimalist if viewed from a century on.)

So much of gca post-WWII has been an attempt to build big courses with carefully leveled fairways, beautifully landscaped hole corridors and smooth aprons. About 1985 a kid came along to note that the quality of the golf played on those courses was not as interesting as the game played on many classic, older courses. And, he suggested, that maybe we ought to cut back on the plowing and the landscaping and let more of the natural features of a site survive the construction process. Again, not to achieve a certain look, but because it would make for better golf. 

Those were remarkable observations at the time. They can be found in Tom's Confidential Guides, in the Anatomy of a Golf Course and in a number of magazines from the period. They were, I believe, a source of much of the controversy that his writing attracted at the time. Which is a mark of their originality.

To have then successfully applied those observations in building golf courses only rounds out the case, it seems to me, for giving Tom a special place in the history books.

Bob       

Scott Warren

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2017, 06:41:51 PM »
Jim Nugent.


That Keiser quote re C&C, I don't see it being as superficial as "social niceties".


It's about communication, stakeholder relations and expectation management, which are critical to building a multi-million-dollar project.

But some creators (builders, designers, architects, planners) are so brilliant that you as client or project manager need to adjust the way you work -- not vice versa -- because ultimately the most important thing is what gets built, provides the timeline and cost are controlled.


And the smart ones put people in place who have strong communication, engagement, relationship skills to handle that stuff, but you rarely change the fact that the client wants to deal with the artist himself and all other things being equal (which they never are) would prefer one who is a good communicator.

Blake Conant

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2017, 08:29:18 PM »
Mr. Keiser's quote speaks more to his style than it does to Tom or Bill's design process.  Personally, I would've liked to see the author interview a couple more of Tom's clients to give the reader a broader view of how his process is received.

Peter Pallotta

Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2017, 10:52:19 PM »
I think the key gca-related point is that Tom thinks of his mother (a golfer) when designing his courses. Besides marking him as a good son, it suggests he was way ahead of the curve in understanding the most crucial aspect of all, ie playability. He realized early on (and in fact might've been the first ever gca to realize) that the majority of those who'd play & love his golf courses were better golfers than his mother -- but not by very much!  :)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 10:53:58 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: New essay on Tom Doak
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2017, 11:09:57 PM »
Mr. Keiser's quote speaks more to his style than it does to Tom or Bill's design process.  Personally, I would've liked to see the author interview a couple more of Tom's clients to give the reader a broader view of how his process is received.


Me, too! 


Unfortunately it's been so long since Mike and I worked together that he's started to forget how smooth it always went.  He argued about greens at Bandon Dunes with David Kidd and argued about greens at Bandon Trails with Bill C., but somehow I built 36 holes there and he never had to ask me to revise a single green!


Somewhere I have a letter from Julian Robertson thanking me for listening to him when appropriate, and not listening to him when appropriate  :)