Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC

[Sean_A]

This last exchange on the Redan and the Biarritz had me wondering:
Would it be a bad thing to now let go of any of the older/traditional concepts on how these templates should be played/were conceived to play?
In other words: might it be time to embrace the quality of the green sites/surrounds themselves, completely independent of the length of the hole?
Might we get more mileage - ie might better golf holes be created -- by stepping outside the old framework re length, even stepping outside any attempt to consciously lengthen these holes to 'match' the modern game?
Other than the historical thread, would golfers lose anything if modern architects kept only the 'greens' from these templates and used them wherever and however  they felt like?

Pietro

The rough Redan green concept is already used a ton without regard to yardage....in truth the idea is over-used...its that good....maybe the best design concept in golf. 

For me its the Biarritz concept which needs refreshening.  Most players are simply whacking a wood at the green in the hope of getting the ball into a spot where they have a chance for par.  I always thought the idea would work better as a shortish par 4 where one needs to earn the position of approach or be faced with a horrible second.  Of course, flat bellies can have a rip with much the same hope that the rest of us schmucks do, but in the hope of finding a birdie.  Although, I think the  long, narrow green concept works extremely well for most all situations...great idea.  A take on the concept is repeated several times at Worcester in England, but flanking trees of all but destroyed what would be awesome fun trying to recover when out of position.

Ciao

[Jonathan Mallard]

I've never met Zac, and I don't have a problem with Zac.


My problem is that I've had a ton of guys [and a couple of women] who have worked for me and been trying to pursue a career in golf architecture for 5, 10, or even 25 years, who get less recognition for it than when a PGA Tour player rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect. 


Hell, Eric Iverson has been working at this for as long as Zac's been alive, and he could go out and build an entire course by himself if he wanted to -- he could even put in the irrigation.  And he knows a fair bit about the 10th at Riviera, too ... it's just that nobody is quoting him about it.


As they say on the PGA Tour, I'm just trying to protect the field.

bump

I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?


Zb

I haven't seen this written, you may have gotten a private message or two about it.


Probably too late for this week, but I think it would be interesting for you to get the architect of the course to discuss the original intent for a specific hole, and then you could discuss how it plays today for the tour player, or various other levels of play that you observe in your pro-am rounds.


If the architect is unavailable (MacKenzie, Ross, etc.), you could ask folks on a rotating basis (Tom Doak, Bill Coore, Jeff Brauer, etc.) to fill that part.


I think Lester George is in Arkansas this week, so that may be a tough lift.


Some coordination and scheduling would be required, but I think the product would be well received.

[Wade Whitehead]

I've never met Zac, and I don't have a problem with Zac.


My problem is that I've had a ton of guys [and a couple of women] who have worked for me and been trying to pursue a career in golf architecture for 5, 10, or even 25 years, who get less recognition for it than when a PGA Tour player rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect. 


Hell, Eric Iverson has been working at this for as long as Zac's been alive, and he could go out and build an entire course by himself if he wanted to -- he could even put in the irrigation.  And he knows a fair bit about the 10th at Riviera, too ... it's just that nobody is quoting him about it.


As they say on the PGA Tour, I'm just trying to protect the field.

bump

I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?


Zb

Zac:

I believe the redan is one of the holes that they changed when they rebuilt it this winter.  No more dragon's teeth, I heard.

It would be a good one, but you might also consider the biarritz on the front nine.  That's a less common hole in the States and that par three never gets any coverage because it's so early in the round.

WW

[Wade Whitehead]

I've never met Zac, and I don't have a problem with Zac.


My problem is that I've had a ton of guys [and a couple of women] who have worked for me and been trying to pursue a career in golf architecture for 5, 10, or even 25 years, who get less recognition for it than when a PGA Tour player rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect. 


Hell, Eric Iverson has been working at this for as long as Zac's been alive, and he could go out and build an entire course by himself if he wanted to -- he could even put in the irrigation.  And he knows a fair bit about the 10th at Riviera, too ... it's just that nobody is quoting him about it.


As they say on the PGA Tour, I'm just trying to protect the field.

bump

I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?


Zb

Zac:

I believe the redan is one of the holes that they changed when they rebuilt it this winter.  No more dragon's teeth, I heard.

It would be a good one, but you might also consider the biarritz on the front nine.  That's a less common hole in the States and that par three never gets any coverage because it's so early in the round.

WW

Throw in the Eden hole on the back (plus the unique 18th (whose green is completely different now)) and you've got four pretty interesting par threes.  Maybe your feature could be on template short holes.

WW

[Buck Wolter]

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2017/07/03/blair_s-eye-view--no--8-at-old-white-tpc.html


On twitter Zac said this is The Best Redan in golf--I know he's played NGLA, Chicago, Yale and North Berwick (I think Shinnecock too).

[Zac Blair]

http://www.pgatour.com/news/2017/07/03/blair_s-eye-view--no--8-at-old-white-tpc.html


On twitter Zac said this is The Best Redan in golf--I know he's played NGLA, Chicago, Yale and North Berwick (I think Shinnecock too).

Sometimes you gotta rile people up. But at the Jed of the day like anything else in life everyone has a personal preference.
[/size][size=78%]although I do love Chicagos and NGLAs redan i just didn't feel like they are the correct distance to play the shot for today's technology. [/size]
[/size]
I will say I did hit a very cool shot at cgc on the redan, but I had to take way too much club and go as far back as possible and still hit a low chipper. Will definelty be a shot I'll never forget.
I really do love redans and always try and play them as they were intended even if it's unnecessary.


Like I said in my article the thing I love of old whites redan is the fact it's proper distance to play as it was intended. And the kicker/contours of the green feed the ball properly to the correct spots. Which in my eyes is what it's all about, right?




Zb

[Buck Wolter]

Zac's supposed to be on Morning Drive tomorrow with Matt Ginella and the Old White Superintendent (7-9am et)