Oak Hill East to be restored

[Ari Techner]

Most greats had drinking problems.  The passage was from the clubs centinnal book, are u questioning that?  Usually folks are honest as hell when they are drunk.

Let's see I believe Doak gave it an 8 as is, Cirba gave it an 8 too.  I have it at a 7.6, hardly overratting it.  To say it can't be a 9-9.5 with Fazio removal is laughable. I pass the test with flying colors.  Many nuances most miss and criticizing the back 9 is rather amatuer, for they are good-great holes.  Most judge a course by how spectacular the land is and don't value character. 

Atleast YOU think you pass the test with flying colors hahahaha.

I never said it wasn't a good golf course and I'm sure it will be better when they are done but 9+ is one of the very best courses in the country and Inverness isn't close to that.  Despite you spending a lot of time there growing up. 

Your saying it can be one of the very best in the country but then describe the holes on the back 9 as good to great.  Hardly a strong defense.  And insult me as being "amateurish".  THAT is laughable.


You need to get out and see more.  Your lack of experience continues to show through in your strong opinions.

I've been to 2 top 10 courses and worked construction at 1 of them.  I've seen enough to know what I think is excellent.  Uve played maybe once and most bunters don't like it  .


Actually there are few courses that are highly ranked that I care to see.  My strong opinions can be backed up with why I like or love something.  Using the play more top courses line doesn't impress me with someone resume.  I have preconceived notions coming in and they usually turn out right.


Your answer with the back 9 was amaurish it was lacking specific details why u didn't care for it and I could care less what uve played.  It has the potential to be one of the best in the country IMO.

Insulting me as a "bunter" when you hit it no further than I do and I've kicked your @$$ everytime we have played together is amateurish.  I'm glad you have no interest in traveling around and seeing many of the great courses and will continue with your ill informed strong opinions.  You can't possibly know what has the potential to be one of the best in the country when you haven't seen most of the other contenders.  I'm sorry I engaged you in the public forum and will try not to do so in the future.

I don't recall of playing a match.  Come on, I hit past u but who is counting.  I have interest in traveling a bit, but to specific courses I want to play. I've seen enough to knows whats great IMO. With as well traveled as u are I'd think u could give more specifics on deficiencies.


 Lastly I think there is too many limits on 9s, as in top 10 only.  I think the big I has potential to be top 25 IMO. Apology accepted

Just to be clear, I was not apologizing to you.  I was an expression of regret for wasting my time trying to engage you in a discussion and thinking you could do so without being condescending and insulting.

[Matt Wharton]

I only played OHE once (almost exactly 1 year ago) ...but the "new" holes were definitely quite jarring. Its a wonderful club with a great history so this is a good move, I think.


Who is Andrew Green?

Andrew Green is a golf course architect and the president of Green Golf and Turf.  He's a devoted husband and father of three.  He earned both a Bachelor's of Landscape Architecture and a Bachelor's of Science in Turfgrass from Virginia Tech in the early 2000's.  Upon graduation he immediately began working for McDonald & Sons based in Baltimore, MD.  He cut his teeth for over a decade working with Chip and Eric before recently striking out on his own.  His design King Carter GC in Kilmarnock, VA while with McDonald & Sons was voted best New Affordable Public by Golf Digest in 2006 and his recent solo renovation of Whitemarsh Valley CC was voted 5th best remodel by Golf Digest in 2015.  His tenure with McDonald & Sons also provided Andrew with invaluable construction experience at some of the most storied venues in the U.S. including Congressional, Merion, Pine Valley, and Shinnecock Hills.


Andrew is an old soul when it comes to golf architecture and has spent considerable time working on William Flynn designs.  We were classmates, intramural golf partners, and have remained close friends the past 20 years.  Prior to this announcement his being awarded the renovation of Inverness Club in Toledo could be considered Andrew's breakthrough moment in his career.  Obviously being awarded the work is one thing and the final result will be scrutinized and judged with a fine-toothed comb by all of us classic architecture aficionados, but I'm extremely happy for him because I know how hard he has worked for this opportunity and I know how much he truly loves golf and classic architecture.  For those of you that like to follow on Twitter, Andrew can be found @greengca. 

[BCowan]

...

[SL_Solow]

I assume the target year for Oak Hill will be after the planting of the very large signature oaks tht occurred long ago

[Greg Gilson]

Matt Wharton....thanks for the background on Mr Green. He has a lot of responsibility with the scalpel poised over 2 classic American courses. Its going to be fun watching him work & seeing the results when those big events hit town.

[Ari Techner]

Just to be clear, I was not apologizing to you.  I was an expression of regret for wasting my time trying to engage you in a discussion and thinking you could do so without being condescending and insulting.

Dude,You are taking urslef way too seriously.  This is called banter and ur getting all bent out of shape.  U asked for my opinion in a text about Moraine last fall and other courses.

I'm pro Big I and have no reservations about it.  I like passionate folks.  Ur skin needs to get thicker. You can buy me a beer next time and we are even

I find taking shots at my game in a public forum when I am clearly a better player than you to be unnecessary.  It's where someone who has no merit to their argument goes similar to someone without access saying they have little interest in travel. 


Inverness only has top 25 potential in a world where you have not seen most of the contenders.  Unless you meant Top 25 Ohio and then I'll agree with you. 

[BCowan]

Matt Wharton....thanks for the background on Mr Green. He has a lot of responsibility with the scalpel poised over 2 classic American courses. Its going to be fun watching him work & seeing the results when those big events hit town.

+1.  I hope Ran interviews Mr Green when both jobs are complete.  Maybe Mr Green will join the site!

[Jeff Bergeron]

Matt Wharton....thanks for the background on Mr Green. He has a lot of responsibility with the scalpel poised over 2 classic American courses. Its going to be fun watching him work & seeing the results when those big events hit town.

+1.  I hope Ran interviews Mr Green when both jobs are complete.  Maybe Mr Green will join the site!


Ari,


Please, access has never been a problem for me.  Man u take urself way too seriously.  Ur not a better player, I'll play u for money anytime.

Both of you need to relax. This forum is about architecture.

[Rob Marshall]

the original par 3 sixth was somewhat "crammed in" and too close to the seventh tee, eighth green, ninth tee, etc. That routing was fine for everyday member play but not too practical for a US Open.

That's why I was somewhat surprised that the club is going to restore the Ross routing ... I never saw the original hole but it's a pretty tight space there and they will lose length on #7 [I think] if they put the original #6 back.


Of course, I am presuming that when they announce a "restoration" they really mean it ... I have not seen the details.  I've heard that the "restoration" of Inverness includes the creation of two brand-new holes to replace the two Fazio holes, and also "re-creating" one of Ross's old par-3's at a new location, because of similar issues to do with gallery flow and overall length.

Members have told me that a new 5th is going to be added where the practice green is located John referred to. The current 5th hole will play to a new green located approximately where the current 6th green is located. I don't think that would effect the 7th tee. Things may have changed since I was told that.

Rob- Hope you are well and look forward to seeing you at Crag Burn in September for the NYSGA Senior Am.


-John

Looking forward to it John.

[Dean DiBerardino]

Oak Hill in 1951 (Was the second nine at Irondequoit being built at this time?)....

[Dean DiBerardino]

And here's Inverness in 1963....

[Tom_Doak]

Dean:


Thanks for the photo.  That's actually the first time I've realized that Inverness only had three par-3 holes to start with.

[Michael George]

How long was the original 8th hole?


Looks like it would be a par 3 today?

[BCowan]

How long was the original 8th hole?


Looks like it would be a par 3 today?

208 yard par 3.  The original 6,7, and 8th make up the present day par 5 8th hole at Inverness. 


Bottom of photo is the original par 4 6th hole, followed by the cape 7th hole. 


The Original 8th





The original 13th (Nichols par 3) Ross included

[Matt Bielawa]

Should probably create new threads to separate the two restorations, but this is hanging in Oak Hill's clubhouse, which I'll assume is what existed in 1924.  Maybe someone more knowledgeable on Oak Hill's history can chime in, but it appears that the 5th hole isn't horribly dissimilar from what stands today?


Obvious differences, besides bunkering and simply adding length:

• #4:  Tee box moved from the left of #3 Green to the right of #3 green, with added length, making for a slight dogleg right after the first shot.  I thought someone said that today's practice green was part of the original routing?  Doesn't appear to be the case based on this drawing.
• #6:   Green was moved away from the 8th tee box and up against the bend of Allen's Creek.  Tee box moved back and to the right, making for a hole that plays to the SW rather than a bit to the NW.
• #13:  A "pond" appears to have been build across the fairway where today there is a more uniform creek of similar width throughout the course.
• #14:  Was this green moved to the right a little?  Looks like it had been tighter against the corner of the property, and a subtly dogleg originally?
• #15:  Green was moved to the right, with water added.  Tee moved back and immediately behind the 14th green.
• #18:  Green moved forwards away from the clubhouse and the tee moved substantially back as well.

[Ben Stephens]

http://givenmemoriallibrary.net/vex/vex1/B9F6DF7D-53B7-49CB-8E3B-365792046991.htm


Click on the link above - all the drawings related to Donald Ross and Oak Hill in Tufts Library

[Matthew Rose]

Andrew Green has been posting photos of the restoration on his Twitter feed.

Here's one hole of particular interest.

[Ronald Montesano]

Removal of that stank pond alone makes this heroic in a golf way.

[John Foley]

Given that I'm local I've been by a few times this fall. Not only is he re-introducing the old Ross holes, he's been doing some significant tree clearing. The vista's now open are pretty amazing. It ain't going to be Oakmont type but it will be a great improvement.