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Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Denver City Park redesign
« on: July 01, 2017, 03:50:01 AM »
There are plans for City Park to go under the knife and get a redo in the next 12-24 months in tandem with a controversial expansion of Interstate 70 which would remove a large elevated section of freeway and rebuild it recessed below street level. In order to contain floodwater, City Park is being proposed as a potential catch basin which will require a redesign of the course and a likely relocation of the clubhouse (which itself was only rebuilt 10-15 years ago).

https://www.denvergov.org/content/denvergov/en/platte-to-park-hill/city-park.html

Bidders on the project include RTJ II, Dye Design (presumably Perry) and a third firm I admittedly don't know much about called iCon in tandem with Hale Irwin.

Some old GCA threads reveal a moderate consensus that the course itself may seem that interesting overall, there does seem to be some appeal in a few oddities. There is a rather vocal opposition to the rebuild, mostly from people who don't want any trees to be cut down as well as people who also oppose the road rebuild, but there are also many people who simply like the course the way it is and don't want it changed.

I'm not really sure how I feel about it, but I'm curious to know what some of the other Denverites' opinions are about it and whether the course in its current incarnation has anything you think is worth saving. I've played it a few times and I enjoyed it for what it was (cheap golf in a really nice urban setting) but I'm also curious to see what kind of course could be built on that site today.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 03:53:31 AM by Matthew Rose »
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2017, 03:58:27 AM »
City Park is nostalgic...the list of potential designers put me to sleep.  Good luck with the Freeway Project.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2017, 10:49:00 AM »
I do not know Greg, but I hope he gets his rest.


What I know about this project is that the golf element is dwarfed by the flood mitigation. I had heard that RTJ2 dropped out, but that was only hearsay. Perry Dye put together a thoughtful plan according to what I heard from someone on the team. The third team is Todd Schoeder who has done some excellent work. I spoke to Todd and he was very optimistic about his design, although I did not get to see anything specific. Todd recently was elected to the ASGCA.   http://icongolfstudio.com/portfolio.html


Sometimes we miss the backstory in developing (or re-imagining) a golf course. Greg's snarky comment about being bored does not surprise me. A lot of golf architecture enthusiasts fail to get deep into how golf courses (projects) even come about in the first place. One line of thought is "If it doesn't involve a great piece of land and a perfect fairytale story, then I'm really not interested to know much about it..." Sad comment. It only furthers the notion that there are a bunch of enthusiasts who truly believe "they get it" when the reality is they lead a pretty shallow and narrow view of golf architecture.


The Denver City Park story is an enormous bureaucratic process that began several years ago. That process alone is worth of study and admiration. And, if you think there is not place for bureaucracy getting involved in golf, then many great projects would never have been completed. It will be fun to see who gets selected — and what design is eventually built.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2017, 01:08:41 PM »
Forrest:


Somehow that bureaucratic process snubbed a bid we were part of, from one of my associates who has played more golf at City Park over the years than all of the others combined.  It was an important project to him, personally, but I guess that doesn't matter to the powers that be.  There's not much about the process that I admired, but I cautioned Eric to beware of that from the start.


Whatever the result, I'd be amazed if it does half as much good for community as CommonGround, which itself contributed a year of revenues to flood mitigation after the big storms a few years back.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2017, 01:18:39 PM »
Tom D — I am sorry to hear that Eric did not get on the final list. I know the feeling. I suppose we all do. And I suppose MacKenzie, Ross, and others also shared the same, nearly exact, feeling.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2017, 04:23:40 PM »
And I suppose MacKenzie, Ross, and others also shared the same, nearly exact, feeling.


Nah, I don't really think they had these b.s. RFP's back in the twenties.  At least I have never seen an example of such ... there was probably some such process, but nothing like today.





Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2017, 04:30:52 PM »
Yes, I am sure there were a whole different set of challenges. They were probably not called RFPs, but I will wager some of the issues were similar!
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2017, 08:02:17 PM »
In many states if you can get in the door and have it bid as professional services you can skip much of the process mentioned above.  I would not bid any of that unless I knew I had a 90% chance before I did the first bid work. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2017, 08:23:47 PM »
I played it a few times years and years ago. The course isn't interesting but it is a lovely setting. I'm glad the current plans will allow the course to survive.

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 07:46:25 PM »
Tom, I’m sorry Eric did not get a shot at this project. I doubt the result will be as good as his would have been. I’d be curious to see what Eric had in mind for the site.

As for City Park, I have played it many times for many years and it is what I think is a perfect municipal course—low price, straightforward golf (and by straightforward I mean 18 straightaway holes built in four parallel lines on a rectangular piece of land) that is decently maintained and with enough interest to make you come back. The course also has some of the best views of the city skyline and mountains of any location in the city. The course is surrounded by busy city streets; there is not much room for the current 18 hole golf course, so it will be an interesting challenge to incorporate this stormwater catchment area. I’m concerned that how this is done could be a make or break issue for the course.

There is a vocal opposition group that is using the golf course as a vehicle to oppose the whole project. From perusing the City materials, it does appear that preserving trees on the course is a major issue as trees are mentioned more that the golf course itself. Here is an example:  “Tree backdrops around greens, if incorporated, should consist of dense canopied ornamental deciduous trees.” Ugh (FYI City Park has in fact removed a lot of trees in recent years, to good effect in my opinion.)

Another comment I noticed was the following:  “Opportunities exist to improve excessive sloping of certain greens (e.g., 1, 2, 3).” The first three greens are pretty significantly sloped back to front. I like them as they present what I think are tough but not unfair challenges. I assume what they mean by “improve” is soften, which could be fine if they don’t overdo it.  Overall, the greens could be made more interesting. The greens that follow the first three are pretty flat and overall boring.

I initially was concerned that City Park was going away. I didn’t like that because I think it serves a very useful purpose to the city’s resident golfers. It’s not the best muny in the city (Wellshire is a lot better IMO), but it is OK. I hope it can retain its character and function post re-do. If so, then not a big deal.

To Denverites--By the way, I noticed in looking at the City materials that I know someone on the City steering committee. If you want to provide any input on this project, please let me know.   
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2017, 11:05:20 PM »
My wife is from Denver and I've played City Park several times over the years. It has a cool muni vibe and the local regulars I've gotten paired up with always take me to the cleaners. Here's a link to photos from August 2015.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157658090972816





Denver City Park #14 from tee P1080294




Denver City Park Sign at first tee P1080262

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 12:52:33 AM »
"I doubt the result will be as good as his would have been." Spoken like a true GCA-er! ;)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 03:46:40 AM »
Forrest,


I appreciate you quantifying my comments as "snarky."  I was, indeed, trying to put a positive spin on it.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 11:57:59 AM »
Greg — I hope the project goes well. While the short list of golf architects may not meet everyone's standards on the "excitement meter needle", the process unfolded amidst a very complicated public environment. I think we should all wish the designers well and look forward to the preservation of one more golf course.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 03:26:26 PM »
Update:  iConGolf Studio (based in Broomfield CO with Principal, Todd Schoeder) has been selected for this project. Hale Irwin is "golf design advisor" to the project. From looking at the conceptual routing plan (posted below), I won't be driving down 23rd or 26th Avenues during regular golfing hours. There's some serious potential for windshield damage based on the plan, particularly from the par 5 in the SW portion of the property that features both a lake and a stream along the right side of the fairway with 23rd Avenue to the left. 

https://www.denvergov.org/content/denvergov/en/platte-to-park-hill/news/2017/cpgc-redesign-team-selection.html
Twitter: @Deneuchre

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 03:30:22 PM »
Doug,

Sounds fine.   Who ever duck hooks when going for the big one on a par five?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 03:56:48 PM »
Difficult to discern from the perspective plan shown in the link, but it appears the team has done well in routing the holes along the freeway. Of course I am not privy to the terrain or the precise measurements. I know Todd and his abilities — I'm quite comfortable in knowing that he will make sure the corridor for the holes Doug mentions will be as safe as practical.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 04:07:19 PM »
I like the line in the press release about how "collectively, the design-build team has completed more than 200 golf course projects."


How many courses has Todd Schroder done?  And how many has Hale Irwin "done" ?  They must have counted up every course that anybody on the construction companies have ever gotten dirty on.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2017, 04:18:01 PM »
I like the line in the press release about how "collectively, the design-build team has completed more than 200 golf course projects."


How many courses has Todd Schroder done?  And how many has Hale Irwin "done" ?  They must have counted up every course that anybody on the construction companies have ever gotten dirty on.


Maybe it was a typo. Should've been "more than 200 golf hole projects."



"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2017, 04:27:46 PM »
Thanks for posting Doug. I've been anticipating this decision for awhile. I wonder if they wanted a "local" product or perhaps felt Hale Irwin's name on it was important. I don't believe I've played anything he's worked on.

I suppose the creek system being installed on the western end of the property is the "flood control" portion. I wish the holes were numbered; I'm unsure what holes are where. Is there a more detailed plan anywhere?
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2017, 05:56:11 PM »
I believe Aspen Golf Builders is also part of the Team, so my guess is that the combination of the designer, pro and contractor were all used to develop that number. I am not sure how many courses Todd has created.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 05:58:30 PM »
Doak has probably had more courses go out of business than that guy built...keep the streak alive!!!

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2017, 06:53:08 PM »
Thankfully not every GCA is hired by how many courses they have created.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2017, 10:08:24 PM »
Doug,


Do you know if the other routings were posted from the other design firms?


I would be curious what the Dye Design firm considered for the storm drainage area and clubhouse relocation?

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Denver City Park redesign
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 10:28:35 PM »
Only played it once, but looking forward to returning and seeing what they do with it.  Should be a nice compliment to Common Ground.