Amateurish Mistakes by Professional Architects

[John Kavanaugh]

What are the most common mistakes professional architects make that would lead you to question...Why not just build it yourself?


For me it's the common practice of building a green in the armpit of agronomy hell.

[MClutterbuck]

A common mistake I see (but would never lead me to try to build it myself) is improper surface water flow around bunkers, causing large maintenance issues after heavy rains.


A second mistake I see is placing a bunker across the fairway from a harsher penalty area (eg OB), thus not allowing a safe shot option, even if the angle to the green is already more complicated from the safe side.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Agree on the drainage around bunkers. Seems to have been a lost design principle from 1980 on.  In fact, am fighting with a shaper who doesn't lip up the top of bunkers right now.  He rolls his eyes every time I mention it, as if I am out of touch.....Of course, with more dramatic shaping, bunker support mounds got bigger and more water tends to drain in bunkers by design.


I would add drainage in general.  I use drainage engineering formulas, but so many don't and it shows.  In the aesthetic rush to downsize any catch basins, they forget that the basin is usually what restricts flow.


In general, whenever I have had an amateur "assisting me" what they don't know is only dwarfed by what they don't know they don't know.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


Do you prefer one large basin or many small ones. All things being equal engineering wise.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,


I prefer basins set in locations that prevent overland flow from crossing a fairway, approach or green, and size those by area drained.  Large when needed, smaller when adequate.


I may use more basins than most, but have found whenever drainage flows more than about 250 feet it creates perpetual long, wet swales in the turf, so yes, you might see basins about that far apart on many of my designs.   Technically, soils erode when water reaches 3 to 5 feet per second (depending on soil type) so sandy soils might counter intuitively get more basins than clay soils.


Of course, the number of basins increases with flat ground, a la many Florida courses we have all seen.  At TPC it seemed Pete put a basin on almost perfect 80 foot (4 lengths of pipe) centers.  That is because it usually works out cheaper at some point to add pipes and basins over raising one side or the other of the fairway by several feet to drain it with slope.


And, if you prefer vision, and based on the other current thread, some don't, and don't want to blind greens from golfers in the fairway, (for the most part) they can only see over 3-4 foot rises.  If the minimum acceptable surface slope is 3%, the maximum distance to any catch basin is usually 300 feet, a bit above theory of placing them every 250 feet to minimize excessive water collection. 


So, most holes fairways end up getting 3-5 basins minimum by these design principles.  Either in the fairway, or in the adjacent rough, depending on topography.


Of course, you were probably being your own snarky self, but on the chance you really wanted to know, I typed out a longer answer.  However, it doesn't come close to explain all that goes into good drainage design.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


I'm a registered professional engineer. This stuff interests me more than most. As a matter of fact I hate improperly sized basins. Or anything that leads to a golfer being given the option of taking a drop. Snark snark.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,


Forgot that, even though I recall you were in the road building biz.


Good stuff, now we can bore the snot out of folks discussing the SCS vs. Rational Formula (which I use for most golf drainage), time of concentration, design storms, and the like.....I am sure there won't be nuff band width with all the site traffic that is likely to generate.

[John Kavanaugh]

Catch basins are the crutch of the overpaid superintendent. Has one ever been removed in the history of the game?

[Steve Lang]

   Jeff,


How much of a range do you use for roughness coefficients between different type grasses old vs new growth?

[Carl Johnson]

Drainage.  Period.  Water flows downhill (last I checked).  That's easy.  Other stuff is hard.  I will not name anyone, however.

[BCowan]

Catch basins are the crutch of the overpaid superintendent. Has one ever been removed in the history of the game?

Sweetens Cove has catch basins. Didn't know they had an overpaid Keeper. 


Are u becoming a minimalist butt boy? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Catch basins are the crutch of the overpaid superintendent. Has one ever been removed in the history of the game?

Sweetens Cove has catch basins. Didn't know they had an overpaid Keeper. 


Are u becoming a minimalist butt boy?

The issue is too many catch basins. Or too large or too small. Catch basins are not the end all-catch all answer to drainage.

[BCowan]

John,


Depends on site. Does site have elevation change? 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Depends as much on precipitation patterns and type of soil I reckon, Ben.


Surface drainage vs sub-surface drainage.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you average two or more drops per round you have a poor design.

[Jeff_Brauer]

"The issue is too many catch basins. Or too large or too small. Catch basins are not the end all-catch all answer to drainage."


That is the kind of snarky, seems to say something important, but is really BS, kind of quote that probably keeps more architects and superintendents off this site.


Of course, hindsight is 20-20.


"If you average two or more drops per round you have a poor design" is more reasonable, and who couldn't agree, at least qualifying you aren't playing in a caddie shack level monsoon.......


And, yes, in many circumstances, ah, yeah, catch basins are the proper solution to drainage problems.  And will agree you need to minimize those self inflicted wounds by creating a need for basins when none existed in nature (i.e., humpy bumpy chipping areas near greens requiring 3-5 basins close to the surface.)


And, basins are designed to collect water, and as such, the areas around them can stay wet, so you solve one problem, but create another, which can also be rectified by how you build the basin.


Ally,


I once put $600K in drainage on a course in Las Vegas, which surprisingly had a water table problem in the desert (not unlike the sandy soils of Prairie Dunes where the water table is only a few feet down).  When houses surround, it can be the perpetual run off from over sprinkling lawns above the golf course that causes you problems, not rain or even soils.

[John Kavanaugh]

"The issue is too many catch basins. Or too large or too small. Catch basins are not the end all-catch all answer to drainage."


That is the kind of snarky, seems to say something important, but is really BS, kind of quote that probably keeps more architects and superintendents off this site.


Of course, hindsight is 20-20.

Hindsight is a product of poor design.

[John Kavanaugh]

To move past drainage...Are overly contoured greens an amateurish mistake made by professionals?

[Jonathan Mallard]

Jeff,


I'm a registered professional engineer.

As am I. If I may ask, what discipline? Mine is Civil.

[John Kavanaugh]

Despite reports to the contrary I'm also Civil.

[BCowan]

To move past drainage...Are overly contoured greens an amateurish mistake made by professionals?

Do u not like Mackenzie greens?

[John Kavanaugh]

To move past drainage...Are overly contoured greens an amateurish mistake made by professionals?

Do u not like Mackenzie greens?

I loved the greens at Pasa but have not played them since they were "fixed".

[Jeff_Brauer]

To move past drainage...Are overly contoured greens an amateurish mistake made by professionals?

JK, Yes, based on our one round of golf a decade ago, you were a peach of a guy.


I don't agree (based on what I have seen) that professional architects over contour greens.  As a stereotype most here would say they are under-contoured, save those of Tom Doak!


Thinking deeper, I also think professional architects may not put as much emphasis on circulation and speed of play.  It was only15 years ago when I seriously started to really pull my tees closer to the proceeding green, and a decade ago I began seriously thinking about cart path routing, specifically aiming at the middle tees to shorten the route, and making the 1% who play the back tees walk a bit to save half a minute or so per hole.


I am sure there is more, as there is a lot to consider, and sometimes we focus on whatever we think is currently important, and lose sight of some of the other basics.  Only so much design crap we can hold in our brains at one time!

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


Have you ever played a course built by an amateur architect? I know one near my home just closed and it made every mistake in the book. Professional architects are not immune to the same mistakes.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have played amateur designs.  I go around thinking the guy was no Hugh Wilson.


Interesting thought as to whether we are immune to mistakes generally (of course) or specifically the same terrible mistakes an am might make (not very often)  And, I bet most architects could point to a bad hole and say with justification that the Owner made them do it, the EPA made them do it, etc.


That said, there are a few architects out there who make the same mistake over and over, and its hard to see why, since they play good courses, have to play their own courses and think about it, whatever.


I have had two architects tell me their prime criteria for routing is not to exceed three days on it.  They accept a few bad holes as part of the deal, can't be avoided (well, not under those conditions!)


Another uses the same 18 greens (not Pete Dye). They are really all about the same shape, just at different angles.  They are long and narrow (or short and wide, depending) much too narrow to accept approach shots, or if across the line of play, to hold them.  He also puts too little support behind his fairway bunkers, so they are never visible. I drove into one playing one of his courses, and then see the same bunker four courses later!


And, some architects, apparently re-using their old plans, still contour greens at 3-4%.


So, yeah, there are mistakes that professionals make.  Not sure hiring yourself or another amateur solves the problems.  Hiring a different architect who is better solves the problems.