[Ira Fishman]

Sean's tour of The Island Club prompted this question.  My wife and I only infrequently have indulged in arranging for a Caddy.  Our club does not have a Caddy program.  Our trip to Ireland actually was the first time my wife had the pleasure and benefits of professional Caddies, and they were great at every course.  At both The Island Club and Dooks we enjoyed the added plus of our Caddy being a Member of the Club who joined us for lunch to continue the swapping of golf and life stories.  We were in Ireland for the All Ireland Finals (Irish rules football) when Killarney was facing Dublin so you can imagine the tales (and boasting) from Marty at Dooks when he learned we were going to attend the match.


My wife, however, had a curious reaction:  she felt like she was "cheating" because the Caddies saved her so many strokes particularly around and on the greens (not to mention the finding of balls that otherwise would have been lost beyond our ability to find them).  I told her that good Caddies were all part of the game and that she should not feel the least bit guilty. 


I assume I am right, right?

[Tom Yost]

Rule 6-4:
"The player may be assisted by a caddie, but he is limited to only one caddie at any one time. "

So, technically speaking, not cheating!

 

[Dean Paolucci]

A Caddie giving Advice is a part of the Rules of Golf and like all other Rules can be a benefit to the player under the same Rule set without betraying (or cheating) the spirit of the game in any way.

[David Whitmer]

Ira,

I do not think using a caddie is cheating. Contrary, it is an accepted part of the game. However, the one aspect where a caddie is allowed to assist that I do not like is in lining up his or her player. I am okay with caddie and player discussing where to hit (either putt or otherwise), what club to use, or how to hit. But, I do not like to see (and I usually see it on the LPGA Tour) the caddie standing behind the player guiding him or her until the caddie feels the player's alignment is correct. To me, THAT feels like cheating.

I don't mind the collaboration prior to setting up and hitting, but collaboration in setting up goes too far, in my opinion. I feel the player must set up and stroke the ball entirely on his or her own.

[Niall C]

Ira


The rules are the rules. It's not cheating but I'd suggest not really in the (modern) spirit of the game over here in the UK. Those "professional" caddies you refer to probably don't make a living at it and I doubt they get much custom from anyone other than overseas players. Personally I think the game is as much about the player plotting your way round the course as it is about the quality of their swing, and in that respect I think they can reduce you to trying to hit shots to order.


On the other hand some find them good company/entertainment but again any time I've had them forced on me I've found they have greatly detracted from enjoyment of the game. Just a personal viewpoint.


Niall

[Dean Paolucci]

David - I understand you not liking  "lining up" however, it is explicitly defined by the Rules and therefore you can legally employ it or not.  It is your choice.

8-2. Indicating Line of Play

a. Other Than on Putting Green


Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player for that purpose on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge, for the purpose of indicating the line of play, must be removed before the stroke is made.

[John Kavanaugh]

Given the advancement of robotics, taking a caddie is an act of charity.

[Sean_A]

Sure, caddies are legal, but like equipment, its another case of he who spends more has a better chance to win...its the way of sports, but a great shame when talking about hacks such as me. Caddies, super-duper equipment and yardage guns create an unequal field before a shot is ever hit.  I don't think caddies should be allowed, only bag carriers.  That said, I am not willing to fight to the death over the issue. 

To answer the question...if your wife enjoyed the day its not cheating because at the end of the day you went to Ireland for fun, not post scores.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I guess that depends...
atb


Royal St Mark's or Stoke Park?

[Rob Marshall]

Some of the caddies I've had have been a disadvantage.

[Kalen Braley]

I would agree with Rob.  I had one caddie that annoyed me and was constantly telling me to hit different clubs than I was comfortable with. I mean Geez, i'm a freaking hack... but thankfully  It didn't detract from the overall experience, but I would have preferred not to have had one in that situation.

[JC Urbina]

Ira,


Tell your wife it's not cheating, a caddie provided me with one of the most memorable rounds of golf in my life, Nick at St Andrews, a round of golf I will never forget, thanks to him on the bag. 


Nick became my coach, cheerleader and most important-  mentor in all things that are really important when walking the Old Course.


Enjoy the walk!

[MClutterbuck]

Speaking of caddies at the Old Course, only course where we took a caddie.


My friend tells his caddie on the first tee, the only advice I was given for TOC was to never disagree with you. However, he was not to pleased with the reading on #1, and on #2, the caddie talks him into playing 2 clubs less than what he intended. Not finding his ball on the green, he actually quietly complained to us about his caddie while searching for his ball. The caddie arrived last onto the green and calmly walked to the pin and retrieved his eagle ball. We are still kidding him today.

[Ira Fishman]

Ok, I cannot top the eagle story on the positive side..  But in the in the same sardonic vein: at the end of our round at Ballybunion (this one on a guys' trip), I asked if we were the worst American group for which he had ever carried; without missing a beat, he responded, "No, but you are Top 5."  I laughed so hard that I started to cry.  Not sure my playing partners appreciated it quite as much.


Ira

[Steve Salmen]

Hardly cheating, Ira for the simple reason that the caddy predates all rules of golf. The first named caddy was Andrew Dickson in 1681. The original 13 rules were established in 1744. Imo it would be well outside the boundaries of the spirit of golf to ban advice of the caddy.

[Ira Fishman]

Hardly cheating, Ira for the simple reason that the caddy predates all rules of golf. The first named caddy was Andrew Dickson in 1681. The original 13 rules were established in 1744. Imo it would be well outside the boundaries of the spirit of golf to ban advice of the caddy.

From the beginning of my time here, I have known that I am a rank amateur. Now I am truly humbled in a very good way. Back I go to lurking status other than reserving all rights should the debate about Number 4 at Mid Pines begin anew.


Ira

[Steve Lang]

   No,

You can always just have your bride just hire a brawny lad to carry the sticks... and look for balls as needed and not give advise.  Ms Sheila did that at TOC.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I guess that depends...
atb


Royal St Mark's or Stoke Park?

My group of friends still refer to any hint of cheating as to "odd-job". So I guess that confirms it.

[Duncan Cheslett]

In the days when Melvyn Morrow stalked these boards, and launched into one of his regular diatribes against distance aids, I would raise the issue of caddies. To me, it seems completely logical that if one sees distance aids as a form of cheating then taking equivalent advice from a caddy must also be cheating. On the putting green, no artificial or electronic aid is allowed, whereas a caddy may assist on all matters apart from actually making the stroke. The anomaly is clear.

Melvyn always used to counter that caddies have long been a part of the game, but that until recent times were nothing more than bag carriers - human trolleys if you will. I am not completely sure of the accuracy of this assertion, but am happy to accede to his greater knowledge (on historical golfing matters at least!)

I have never employed a professional caddy and I doubt that I ever will. Apart from being way too cheap careful I am uncomfortable with the master-surf relationship in exactly the same way that I dislike having a bell-hop carry my bags to my room in a hotel. I avoid such hotels for this very reason among others. Caddies to me are an unfortunate reminder of golf's early days as a game for gentlemen assisted by paid oiks from the lower orders. It grates with my socialist inclinations.

Interestingly, I am friends with two part-time professional caddies. One is a dour Scot, a former low ranking tour pro who now plays to +2, and who carries at Royal Troon where he is also a member. The other is a far less dour Scot of more limited golfing ability and experience who was last seen working at Kingsbarns.

Having the former on the bag could be viewed as getting an unfair advantage. Having the latter could not, but would probably result in a more entertaining day!

 


As a footnote, my dour +2 Scottish friend visited Reddish Vale last year just about broke 80. Upon reaching the 18th green he exclaimed   "Compared to this place, Royal Troon is a piece of fuckin' piss!"

[Thomas Dai]

Apparently Alister MacKenzie thought golf should only be played with 6 clubs. If this number had become the standard would the number of caddies have declined drastically years ago..........and for that matter would the use of buggies and trolley's and the like be far less prevalent?
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Apparently Alister MacKenzie thought golf should only be played with 6 clubs. If this number had become the standard would the number of caddies have declined drastically years ago..........and for that matter would the use of buggies and trolley's and the like be far less prevalent?

It would certainly be cheaper and far more fun.

[archie_struthers]

 


Totally with David on lining up the payer , it should be banned .


It's a skill , and should  be acquired at the range ,

[Sean_A]

Totally with David on lining up the payer , it should be banned .


It's a skill , and should  be acquired at the range ,

Hmmm, isn't anything to with advice a caddie gives a skill?  If you allow advice from a caddie its all or nothing...otherwise it really gets silly.

Ciao

[James Brown]

Sean's tour of The Island Club prompted this question.  My wife and I only infrequently have indulged in arranging for a Caddy.  Our club does not have a Caddy program.  Our trip to Ireland actually was the first time my wife had the pleasure and benefits of professional Caddies, and they were great at every course.  At both The Island Club and Dooks we enjoyed the added plus of our Caddy being a Member of the Club who joined us for lunch to continue the swapping of golf and life stories.  We were in Ireland for the All Ireland Finals (Irish rules football) when Killarney was facing Dublin so you can imagine the tales (and boasting) from Marty at Dooks when he learned we were going to attend the match.


My wife, however, had a curious reaction:  she felt like she was "cheating" because the Caddies saved her so many strokes particularly around and on the greens (not to mention the finding of balls that otherwise would have been lost beyond our ability to find them).  I told her that good Caddies were all part of the game and that she should not feel the least bit guilty. 


I assume I am right, right?

Caddies are an integral part of the game.  A good caddie can help you appreciate the course more and play better at the same time. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ira,


Tell your wife it's not cheating, a caddie provided me with one of the most memorable rounds of golf in my life, Nick at St Andrews, a round of golf I will never forget, thanks to him on the bag. 


Nick became my coach, cheerleader and most important-  mentor in all things that are really important when walking the Old Course.


Enjoy the walk!

Jim, that's because TOC is particularly punishing to those who slice the ball....;-)

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