How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?

[Eric Strulowitz]

Did Arnold Palmer do any more for golf design than just lend his name?  I don't know the answer, just throwing this out.  Wasn't Ed Seay really the one behind the scenes? 

[Adam Lawrence]

Did Arnold Palmer do any more for golf design than just lend his name?  I don't know the answer, just throwing this out.  Wasn't Ed Seay really the one behind the scenes?

Many architects have worked for Palmer Design over the years. Ed ran the business for a long time, but he was not the only guy.

[Jason Thurman]

In one town I lived in as a kid, the Chandlers owned and managed the local McDonald's. It wasn't as confusing as this thread would have us think it was.

[BHoover]

In one town I lived in as a kid, the Chandlers owned and managed the local McDonald's. It wasn't as confusing as this thread would have us think it was.

Wait, you mean that McDonald's isn't actually owned and operated by Ronald McDonald? How is this possible?


I'm afraid to even ask if there really is a legitimate King in charge of Burger King.

[Jason Thurman]

Brian, there is, but the Burger King himself died many years ago, long live the king. The company is now in the hands of the prince, who actually prefers fish tacos. And yet the business marches forward.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, I don't think that developers hire signature design firms so that they get to hang out with the signature, but because they think the name will help them sell houses/attract people to their resort/whatever. It's a business decision not an ego one.


So the survival of the Palmer design firm in the future fundamentally depends, as David and Tom have been discussing, on whether that brand name continues to have value, so the firm can continue to win business (and, for that matter, attract and retain architectural talent: if Thad and Brandon, and anyone who might follow them, conclude that they'd do better operating under their own names then bang goes Palmer).


Will that be so? It's hard to tell, though I have had extensive discussions with messrs Johnson and Layton on the subject. Their view is that, as the stewards of the Palmer brand, they have over 300 courses that will continue to need architectural support in the future for whom they are the natural, go-to partner, and that this gives them a strong base from which to pursue other business. As to that other business, it will in the end come down to whether the two of them do good enough work and are sufficiently convincing in a sales environment, to attract new clients.


As David mentions above, it's perfectly normal in other professional services sectors for businesses named after the founder(s) to survive and prosper post those founders. That has not been so in golf course design up to press, except in the case of firms that have been run by multiple generations of the same family (Maples, Hawtree, Swan, Harradine, Jones to an extent to name a few). But golf design is a small industry with only relatively few practitioners, and it's dangerous to draw firm conclusions from a small sample. It is an interesting topic. But in the end only time will tell.

Adam,
No doubt, you are correct.They hire the sig to market Real Estate etc.  BUT as TD mentioned in his post, I have seen more than once where some young VP is best friend to JN or BC or Norman etc.  Sure they hired them for the marketing but the side benefit was doing lunch and fishing, in their minds. 

I also think you are right hat only time will tell how the Signature business evolves as the main guys become older.  This is the first time it has had a chance to test itself.  I have never been a huge APD fan and I don't know anyone working there now.  I do know that so many associates have been dismissed form other large firms over the last 10 years and they continue to sometimes be hired to work on the projects of the principal they worked for even while carrying another company name.  There is also the question of just ho good are the guys in the offices of the sigs.  So many have never been exposed to the cutthroat dealing that goes on in landing a job in this business when all they have ever had to do is work the projects that the sig agent landed.  And from a few that I have known they did not have the passion of some of the guys I have met who are out in the field busting their asses with no recognition.  My gut tells me the APD brand is done and perhaps the young men who have been working there will continue to rework APD projects but at the same time there are others who are older and did more of the APD projects probably vying for the same work.  However, I did notice one of the former APD guys is now working with one of the national maintenance companies in customer relations.  So, as you say, time will tell.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - I guess only time will tell which young associates (in large signature firms) have actually been happy/satisfied with that role, even if they've occasionally complained about wanting but not getting their big chance/break; and which young associates have instead been painstakingly learning and working as part of a dedicated plan to one day design their own courses. Of that latter (and I assume much smaller) group, I think one or two might prove to be the right ones to try to leverage the signature name/brand as the first crucial step towards their ultimate goal. I think those of you who are currently working architects might be taking the "signature" in the signature firm more seriously than many of the rest of us do; as noted, for us APD is not all that much different than the Macdonalds and Burger Kings of the world -- a signifier of what to expect when you walk in the door, no more and no less. I think whoever will be working under that APD umbrella (no pun intended) just needs to ensure that the (well-established) expectations continue to be met, i.e. that if a client is expecting Macdonalds they don't give him MacRaynor instead.  And if they do that, I suppose some young architect will have as much of a chance at making a name for himself/herself as any other young architect who is trying a different route.
Peter       

[Mike_Young]

Mike - I guess only time will tell which young associates (in large signature firms) have actually been happy/satisfied with that role, even if they've occasionally complained about wanting but not getting their big chance/break; and which young associates have instead been painstakingly learning and working as part of a dedicated plan to one day design their own courses. Of that latter (and I assume much smaller) group, I think one or two might prove to be the right ones to try to leverage the signature name/brand as the first crucial step towards their ultimate goal. I think those of you who are currently working architects might be taking the "signature" in the signature firm more seriously than many of the rest of us do; as noted, for us APD is not all that much different than the Macdonalds and Burger Kings of the world -- a signifier of what to expect when you walk in the door, no more and no less. I think whoever will be working under that APD umbrella (no pun intended) just needs to ensure that the (well-established) expectations continue to be met, i.e. that if a client is expecting Macdonalds they don't give him MacRaynor instead.  And if they do that, I suppose some young architect will have as much of a chance at making a name for himself/herself as any other young architect.
Peter       

Peter,
I think the average working architect may see it differently.  While I'm not a fan of signature architecture, I have never really had to compete with it because the guy wanting a name to sell real estate doesn't consider myself.  And he really doesn't consider the associate under the sig either.  I am positive there is much naivety in the sig business once an associate has to come out on his own.  Mush of the expense we see today in construction is the results of sig architecture and trying to one up the guy down the street.   I you haven't been taught how to get it done without that expense it can be tough.  A few times I have seen arrogance and stupidity in guys trying to compete after working for a sig and not realizing how the rest of the business has to operate. 

[Bruce Wellmon]

Does the Arnold Palmer Design Company not have a current new course project at Castle Stuart?

[Michael Whitaker]

Does the Arnold Palmer Design Company not have a current new course project at Castle Stuart?

As of last fall they were on "go" for a Palmer Tribute Course at CS. The Arnold Palmer Group was to be one of the investors: http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/castle-stuart-remembers-arnold-palmer/