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Mike_Young

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How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« on: June 24, 2017, 09:27:22 PM »
WITH ALL RESPECT TO ARNOLD PALMER....

I assume we could still have a Donald Ross Design Co. or a McKenzie Design. 

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 09:30:01 PM »
Neither Ross nor MacKenzie funded their operation to continue after their death.  [All credit to Arnie there.]


He has thereby designated a successor to look after his work and deal with clubs if they want to make any changes, which I wish Ross and MacKenzie had been able to do.

Joe Hancock

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2017, 09:31:39 PM »
I sure am going to miss DisneyWorld once they catch wind of this policy.......


Seriously, Mike...it's a brand, and a good one at that. Like Ford, the founder may be gone but that doesn't mean the brand passes away too.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 09:47:34 PM »

Seriously, Mike...it's a brand, and a good one at that. Like Ford, the founder may be gone but that doesn't mean the brand passes away too.


Joe:  Really?  Mike is correct that this has never really been successful before in the golf architecture business.  A few architects have sold their brand to their associates late in life, and it has pretty much always been a disaster for the associates.


Indeed, if Arnie's name continues to be successful, it might undermine the rationale for the entire signature design business.  At least, I've always thought it all rested on the belief that the famous guy really designed the course -- and obviously, from here out, that won't be true of Arnold Palmer Design.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2017, 09:50:04 PM »
I sure am going to miss DisneyWorld once they catch wind of this policy.......


Seriously, Mike...it's a brand, and a good one at that. Like Ford, the founder may be gone but that doesn't mean the brand passes away too.
Joe,
I disagree.  If it is as TD says and they funded the Scotland course or something then that's great.  However it has to go away eventually.  We don't see a Ross brand or an RTJ brand afterwards do we?  I don't see the difference.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 09:56:17 PM »
Ha ha - undermine the rationale for the signature design business... ha ha  :)
I think you're both right and both wrong: the brand will indeed continue (but only "in the style of"...much like there is still, 70 years after his death, a Glenn Miller Orchestra); and the rationale for the signature design business will indeed be undermined (but except for ceremonial opening tee shots, not in a way that the clients/developers will care about)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 10:18:37 PM »
Peter,
Why don't I start "The Donald Ross Design Co" tomorrow?  Or why doesn't someone start eh Pablo Picasso Company tomorrow?  Signature professional golfer design is more about project marketing than design.  I don't think this will apply to golf design.  I hope not. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2017, 10:36:58 PM »
Mike - I don't want to be a smart ass but I really mean this: I think you *should* start The Donald Ross Design Co, and as quickly as possible -- because, mark my words, now that you've put the idea out there someone is going to jump at the idea...and I'd much rather it be you who benefits from this than someone else. I mean, is it really that hard to imagine someone's press release on this:
"Pinehurst. Seminole. Dozens of the finest golf courses and most successful golf clubs in all of America -- all from the great Golden Age of Golf Course Architecture, and all from the skilled and patient hands of 20th century golf's most preeminent designer: Donald Ross. Now, for the first time ever, you too can have the opportunity to become part of a golfing legacy like no other: a chance to create a *new* and modern day Donald Ross classic -- an exclusive course that potential members will instantly fall in love with, and that history will deem one of the very finest in the land! Contact The Donald Ross Design Co. for more information. We are not only the world's leading experts on Donald Ross designs, but also the proud heirs of his magnificent and historic talent. Create your own Seminole today; bask in the joy of great golf and pride-filled  ownership for decades to come. #History Starts Today!".
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 10:47:36 PM by Peter Pallotta »

BCowan

Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2017, 10:43:13 PM »
Peter,
Why don't I start "The Donald Ross Design Co" tomorrow?  Or why doesn't someone start eh Pablo Picasso Company tomorrow?  Signature professional golfer design is more about project marketing than design.  I don't think this will apply to golf design.  I hope not.

Mike,

   Now i need you to sign some papers.  When you retire I'm going to continue MY design.  Going to bring MY design above the Mason Dixie line.... ;D

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 10:47:22 PM »
Mike - I don't want to be a smart ass but I really mean this: I think you *should* start The Donald Ross Design Co, and as quickly as possible -- because, mark my words, now that you've put the idea out there someone is going to jump at the idea...and I'd much rather it be you who benefits from this than someone else. I mean, is it really that hard to imagine someone's press release on this:
"Pinehurst. Seminole. Dozens of the finest golf courses in America -- all from the great Golden Age of Golf Course Architecture, and all from the highly skilled hands of 20th century golf's preeminent designer: Donald Ross. Now, for the first time ever, you too have the opportunity to become part of a golfing legacy like no other: a chance to create a *new* and modern day Donald Ross classic -- a course that potential members will instantly fall in love with, and that history will deem one of the finest in the land! Contact The Donald Ross Design Co. for more information. We are not only the world's leading experts on Donald Ross designs, but also the proud heirs of his magnificent talent".

Peter,
Thanks but no thanks.  I don't think there is any such thing as a DR expert.   I'll continue to do my thing and try and watch all of the smoke and mirrors that make up this business.  Think about this.  I don't know the people involved with APD now but I do know the ones that were there for a long time are all gone.  So it has to be younger guys.  They might be the most talented guys in the business.  I don't know that either.  It doesn't matter.  When working under a name they will have opportunities many of the other younger guys may not have. 

Overall there is an industry out there with a lot of guys who have never sold a job and have no idea how to do it.  I just saw last week where one of the major golf architect fraternities brought in a few associates.  One had worked for me for around 6 years but the resume only mentions the two signatures he worked for.   Hell one guy formed an entire company to be the design of TW.  Hopefully things like APD will help bring the signature business to a halt.   
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2017, 05:41:09 AM »
Long term it highlights the 'value' of signature design.


From Arnold's passing the value of using Arnold Palmer Design Co  to design your course tomorrow 'should' be significantly cheaper as the 'signature' element is removed.


It is likely the company will constrict in my opinion from now on.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adam Lawrence

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2017, 09:05:11 AM »
As phrased, this is a fairly silly question. There is still an Arnold Palmer Design Company because the new owner(s) of the business, presumably Arnold's heir(s), whoever s/he/they me be, want to continue operating it, and the two architects who do the design work, viz Brandon Johnson and Thad Layton, want to continue working there.


Adrian, I presume you mean contract rather than constrict, as I doubt either Thad or Brandon would like to become considerably narrower?


As for Mike's comment about Ross or MacKenzie, sure there could, if the heirs of either man had chosen (and been able) to keep opearting the business. It's just a name, a brand, like any other. I don't suppose Mr Ernst or Mr Young continue to operate that business either.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2017, 09:28:08 AM »
No Adam, constrict is the word. I think their business will shrink as any deceased architects would, the value of APs name now is significantly less.


On a different note what if my real name was Jack Nicklaus could JN sue me if I practised golf architecture and used the name, wonder what the legal position is. When Mike Tyson fought there was another MT that got quite a few fights because people liked having the Mike Tyson name on their win record.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2017, 09:55:19 AM »
As phrased, this is a fairly silly question. There is still an Arnold Palmer Design Company because the new owner(s) of the business, presumably Arnold's heir(s), whoever s/he/they me be, want to continue operating it, and the two architects who do the design work, viz Brandon Johnson and Thad Layton, want to continue working there.


Adrian, I presume you mean contract rather than constrict, as I doubt either Thad or Brandon would like to become considerably narrower?


As for Mike's comment about Ross or MacKenzie, sure there could, if the heirs of either man had chosen (and been able) to keep opearting the business. It's just a name, a brand, like any other. I don't suppose Mr Ernst or Mr Young continue to operate that business either.
Adam,
I don't see it as a silly question.  And it is not meant as derogatory towards any of the younger guys working there.  Over the years I have seen and I'm sure you have seen how the developer team in charge of choosing the signature like to interact with the signature.  That will no longer happen at APD.  AP is thru designing golf courses and marketing golf courses.  Golf courses are works of art and not something like a golf club company (Ben Hogan) or a shirt company ( Donald Ross).  There is a reason there is no Frank Lloyd Wright design company or a Robert Trent Jones Design Company.  Roger Rulewich would have been in perfect position to continue a company such as RTJ but it just doesn't happen.  Most art, be it furniture, paintings etc becomes more valuable after the passing of the artist.  No matter the involvement of AP himself in his courses over the years, that is gone. 
Again, it is not meant as a silly question but as a legitimate question that should go a long ways in telling us how the past 30 years of signature design will carry forward.  JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Blake Conant

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 10:04:07 AM »
Would your opinion change if Arnold had named his company Umbrella Design Co.?


What if Tom Doak disappeared off the planet tomorrow (sorry Tom) and Renaissance Golf Design remained a golf design firm?  Would there be an issue there?  And in a way, with Stoatin Brae opening, they've began to figure out how to differentiate a Renaissance job that involves Tom and a Renaissance job that doesn't involve Tom.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:05:57 AM by Blake Conant »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 10:11:41 AM »
Would your opinion change if Arnold has named his company Umbrella Design Co.?


What if Tom Doak disappeared off the planet tomorrow (sorry Tom) and Renaissance Golf Design remained a golf design firm?  Would there be an issue there?  And in a way, with Stoatin Brae opening, they've began to figure out how to differentiate a Renaissance job that involves Tom and a Renaissance job that doesn't involve Tom.

My opinion would change completely....as it would if Logan Fazio continued with a company called Fazio Designs and not Tom Fazio designs.  I wouldn't see a big issue if Sam Saunders took over APD and changed it to Saunders Design.   I actually think that's where a lot of this is going in the future.  Blake, you and I both know the involvement of most tour players in this entire scheme, it's has always been based on a mid level marketing VP who wants to go bird hunting or fishing with one of the sigs and has the ability to sign the dude for the job.  But some of the nationally/internationally known guys who are not tour players have begun to eliminate the basic jock sniffing from the business. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Lawrence

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 10:56:22 AM »
No Adam, constrict is the word. I think their business will shrink as any deceased architects would, the value of APs name now is significantly less.


On a different note what if my real name was Jack Nicklaus could JN sue me if I practised golf architecture and used the name, wonder what the legal position is. When Mike Tyson fought there was another MT that got quite a few fights because people liked having the Mike Tyson name on their win record.


Constrict means 'get narrower' not shrink. 'Contract' means shrink :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 11:09:00 AM »
No Adam, constrict is the word. I think their business will shrink as any deceased architects would, the value of APs name now is significantly less.


On a different note what if my real name was Jack Nicklaus could JN sue me if I practised golf architecture and used the name, wonder what the legal position is. When Mike Tyson fought there was another MT that got quite a few fights because people liked having the Mike Tyson name on their win record.


Constrict means 'get narrower' not shrink. 'Contract' means shrink :)
Rubbish, constrict has a number of meanings including Shrink- Reduce - Narrow - Smaller....all very similar. You will telling me your an expert on words next and you write for a living. pah! :O)
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

David_Tepper

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2017, 11:32:09 AM »
Skidmore, Owings & Merrill is an architectural design firm that has survived (and prospered) for generations beyond its founding partners. I imagine there are others. 

If any contemporary GCA firm could survive the passing of its founder, APDC likely has the best chance to do so.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2017, 11:48:45 AM »
If any contemporary GCA firm could survive the passing of its founder, APDC likely has the best chance to do so.


I'm just curious if you can explain why you think they, of all, have the best chance for succession.


I might agree but I doubt it's for any of the same reasons!

David_Tepper

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2017, 12:05:35 PM »
Tom -

I think AP is the strongest "brand name" in golf (although it may not be the strongest in the business of GCA). Simple as that.

Thinking about it further, Nicklaus Design might even have a better chance, simply because (as I understand it) there is a Nicklaus son involved in the business.

DT

Tom_Doak

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2017, 12:24:37 PM »
Tom -

I think AP is the strongest "brand name" in golf (although it may not be the strongest in the business of GCA). Simple as that.

Thinking about it further, Nicklaus Design might even have a better chance, simply because (as I understand it) there is a Nicklaus son involved in the business.



Yes, and the son is also named Jack Nicklaus, so it's inevitable that "Nicklaus design" will continue.  But is that any different than RTJ II or Rees Jones [or Perry Dye or Roger Packard or Jerry Matthews, or indeed Tom Fazio], or all the other legacy designers of yore?


Palmer's deal is different because it's two young, unrelated guys who worked for him.  I'd be surprised if they find a lot of new courses to build using Arnold's name, but they also have a built-in business of more than 200 courses to renovate, many of which could use it.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2017, 12:26:27 PM »
Tom -

I think AP is the strongest "brand name" in golf (although it may not be the strongest in the business of GCA). Simple as that.

Thinking about it further, Nicklaus Design might even have a better chance, simply because (as I understand it) there is a Nicklaus son involved in the business.

DT
My take would be because it is the strongest brand name it will sink faster with Arnold gone. Did they create exceptional golf courses? No. Did they sell more real estate because because of the association with people living on an Arnold Palmer designed golf course? Yes.  Will the new design team create exceptional golf courses? Probably No. Will they continue to sell real estate now that the Arnold Palmer golf course is not designed by Arnold Palmer? No.   


I really can't see how a signature name can continue.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2017, 12:34:57 PM »
Mike, I don't think that developers hire signature design firms so that they get to hang out with the signature, but because they think the name will help them sell houses/attract people to their resort/whatever. It's a business decision not an ego one.


So the survival of the Palmer design firm in the future fundamentally depends, as David and Tom have been discussing, on whether that brand name continues to have value, so the firm can continue to win business (and, for that matter, attract and retain architectural talent: if Thad and Brandon, and anyone who might follow them, conclude that they'd do better operating under their own names then bang goes Palmer).


Will that be so? It's hard to tell, though I have had extensive discussions with messrs Johnson and Layton on the subject. Their view is that, as the stewards of the Palmer brand, they have over 300 courses that will continue to need architectural support in the future for whom they are the natural, go-to partner, and that this gives them a strong base from which to pursue other business. As to that other business, it will in the end come down to whether the two of them do good enough work and are sufficiently convincing in a sales environment, to attract new clients.


As David mentions above, it's perfectly normal in other professional services sectors for businesses named after the founder(s) to survive and prosper post those founders. That has not been so in golf course design up to press, except in the case of firms that have been run by multiple generations of the same family (Maples, Hawtree, Swan, Harradine, Jones to an extent to name a few). But golf design is a small industry with only relatively few practitioners, and it's dangerous to draw firm conclusions from a small sample. It is an interesting topic. But in the end only time will tell.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How is there still an Arnold Palmer Design Co?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2017, 01:11:42 PM »
Mike, I don't think that developers hire signature design firms so that they get to hang out with the signature, but because they think the name will help them sell houses/attract people to their resort/whatever. It's a business decision not an ego one.



That's what they tell their investors, but Mike is also correct that in a lot of cases the perk of getting to hang out with a famous golfer is part of the attraction to their company.


When I lost out on a job to Coore and Crenshaw a few years ago, I asked the developer how much of the difference was due to Ben being Ben.  He said he was very surprised that so many of his investors and members were all geeked out about getting to meet Ben Crenshaw.  Having known him for 36 years, I wasn't the least bit surprised.

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