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Scott_Burroughs

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Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« on: September 29, 2003, 11:04:54 AM »
For those of you who were on the "Land of Entrapment" trip and went on to play Twin Warriors with Enchanting (Entrapping?) state host Mr. Clayman, here's Ron Whitten's review in GD:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/twinwarriors.html


EDIT:  can't remember if it's a GCA.com problem or a GD web site problem, but that question mark in the URL prevents the entire link from being included in the "clickable" part of the link, so you'll either have to click on it and cut and paste in the rest, or go to here:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/  and click on the link at top
« Last Edit: September 29, 2003, 11:07:08 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2003, 11:08:23 AM »
guess I should have done this as a new post instead of an edit of the first, but:


EDIT:  can't remember if it's a GCA.com problem or a GD web site problem, but that question mark in the URL prevents the entire link from being included in the "clickable" part of the link, so you'll either have to click on it and cut and paste in the rest, or go to here:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/  and click on the link at top

George Pazin

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Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2003, 11:24:48 AM »
Pretty harsh review. I'll be interested in hearing what the gang who played it felt.

Aesthetically, it lacked the natural beauty of Black Mesa. It looked as though it played softer as well.

Hard to blame Panks on the waterfalls.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A_Clay_Man

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2003, 01:15:48 PM »
Talk about mis-leading. You'd think just from reading this review that the casino doors are directly next to the course. Complete with drunken bums cajolling and staggering during one of your swings. The issue about the waterfall/pond is kind of funny, because without it the hole would be great? That makes no sense. And as for the objections to the par 3 12th, I am of a completly opposite opinion.

Who in their right mind would ever think of driving the 10th? Is there some blurb in the "pro tips" or on the GPS about that suggestion? The course is exremely penal for errant shots ergo drivable par 4 should never enter the brain.

The course is wide, but not wide enough for the average resort course golfer. The real issue, for me, when I first golfed there was why did they choose to call themselves a resort course? I had never seen a resort course with so many forced carries other than Pebble Beach. Which as i understand it was a golf course before the modern marketing guy coined the term resort golf course.

The Hyatt hotel that is visable(but not too close) from the course is as classy as Spanish Bay but at probably half the price.

This leads to the question "what motivated the author to slam"? what I consider to be a pretty good desert golf course. Also, why didn't he talk to Panks? As a reporter isn't that part of the diligence? Maybe then he would've learned that every hole was a signature hole.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2003, 02:27:23 PM »
WOW! What a blistering report!

Well, I'm going to have to think about this one because I enjoyed Twin Warriors. I thought it was fun, strategicly challenging, and well thought out with a nice variety of holes. And, I got the impression that the other members of my group felt the same way.

I agree that 17 and 18 are a bit mild following the bold 16th, but Mr. Whitten's strong emotions on this course have me wondering, once again, if I just don't know a decent course when I see one. It must be because they had the pump turned off on #4 and we were not subjected to the waterfall. Yeah, that must be it! Whoo... for a minute I thought it might just be because a had a good day, played well, and enjoyed fellowship of my companions.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2003, 04:38:13 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2003, 02:46:42 PM »
I liked Twin Warriors a lot.  The 10th hole is the only one that I found awkward, but if it was on a Classic course it would be considered quirky, and, therefore, highly worthy of praise.  The waterfalls par 3 did not come across over the top at all, and the water did make you focus on keeping the ball right (with a crosswind from the north toward it, my ball went right in it).  At 7,700 yards with many perched tees, the course really plays closer to 6,900 yards at sea level.  With several sets of tees, the golfer can pick whatever length feels comfortable.

Perhaps a better guide to the quality of the course is its full tee sheet.  I played with two gentlemen from Longview, Texas who liked the course so much that they changed their travel arrangements to get another shot at it.  One of the guys is a member at Brookhollow in Dalls, and has played most of the country's best courses.  So, Mr. Whitten has a rather negative opinion on the course which goes to show that we should be wary of the critics.  I also enjoyed Paa-Ko Ridge tremendously eventhough I was soundly beaten by my opponent and the course.  A very well known figure on this site did not liked that course very much.  Go figure.  I guess, to each his own!  

Matt_Ward

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2003, 04:04:24 PM »
I've had the pleasure in playing a few rounds on Twin Warriors and I have to say that Ron Whitten got it wrong big time with the layout.

I don't doubt for a second the waterfall on the par-3 4th is completely unnatural and out of place for the setting. But, Ron just paid lip service to a number of fine holes on the front side. How bout the long par-4's you play at the 2nd and 3rd holes? Each hole plays in a separate direction and the approach shot to #3 is quite demanding.

The blind tee shot at #6 is also well done and the entire 7th is one of the 2-3 best holes at the facility.

Regarding the 10th -- Ron makes a point to say that the hole was bit awkward. I feel differently. The blind aspect at the 10th ADDS to its quality. You have to be quite secure in picking the correct club when you tee off. Go too far and you can be in a most distressing position. The approach to the elevated green is also one fo the very best shots you play at TW.

Ron also mentions how awkward is the tee shot at the driveable par-4 11th. He says it's necessary to see the green in such a situation. Why is that? The smart play is to use an iron from the tee and then go at the green with a short wedge. If you decide to go for the green from the tee where does it say the architect h-a-v-e to provide a line-of-sight that makes such a shot easier to judge?

Ron also mentioned the par-3 13th as being difficult to align oneself when playing. What makes the hole demanding is the likelihood of a daily crosswind that cuts hard from left-to-right when playing. If you fail to align yourself at the tee it's quite likely your approach will simply sail wide right into some real interesting lies.

I do agree with Ron about the 15th and 16th -- the par-3 15th is simply one of the finest par-3's holes you play in all of NM. The downhill 16th is also a fine par-5 that requires plenty of thought on each shot.

I also agree that the 17th and 18th are quite formulaic in their style and manner. However, the 18th is not an easy hole when played into the daily prevailing wind and the green has plenty of contours to keep you guessing.

TW is a fine Gary Panks design and far too much of his work gets little attention. I would certainly recommend people play his effort at Chapparal Pines in Payson, AZ. It's one of the top five courses I have played in AZ and plenty of his designs are well thought out with interesting holes.

Yes, the eye-candy waterfall at the 4th does detract a bit from the overall course at TW, however, one needs to place that in some sort of perspsective when you see the bulk of the other holes at the facility.

New Mexico has a number of fine facilities -- I would urge those who have not been to the state to play it when there (I see TW as being among my personal top five in the state).

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2003, 04:16:22 PM »
I am not asking this for any insidious reason, but does anyone know how good a golfer Mr. Whitten is? I personally won't be seeking out any more desert courses for a long time until I get a lot better, but I don't hold that against the courses, it's more a sad statement of my game. Any chance he's a mid to high handicapper who struggles with desert golf?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2003, 04:24:26 PM »
George:

My only issue with Ron's comments comes from him stating that the listed 7,700+ yards of TW is probably a stretch because it doesn't play that long. I don't doubt the effect of desert air at that elevation (5,000+ feet) but you still must it hit it strong on a number of the holes from the tips. What confuses me is when people make the case the course isn't that long but make it a point to play from forward tee positions.  ::)

TW has extremely dense rough -- I played the course right after the National Club Pro was held there and it was like hitting out of steel wool.
 
TW does have issues (the well documented par-3 4th is just one area already cited) but there are quality holes that Panks has designed and although TW doesn't have the beguiling charm and mystic of Black Mesa or the raw beauty of Paa-Ko Ridge the course is a serious test and never concedes anything unless the shot is well played and properly thought out before the swing is made.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2003, 04:55:03 PM »
Matt - I second your comments about the rough. It was EXTREMELY dense, making any kind of shot very difficult to judge. I remember having difficulty with a couple of pitch/chip shots near the green... the grass just snagged my club and killed the momentum.

Twin Warriors, IMHO, is sort of a hybrid desert course. It is not visually intimidating like Black Mesa. It played longer at 6900+ (Blue) than BM did at 7300+ (Black). I seemed to be hitting long or mid irons into the greens all day at TW. There is danger lurking everywhere at Black Mesa. TW is generally more forgiving of stray shots.

I liked both courses, a lot. If I had to play one tomorrow, just for fun, I would choose BM over TW because I enjoy the visual intimidation that BM throws at you. If I were real concerned about the score I would play TW... not because I think it is easier, but because I think BM is a series of  accidents waiting to happen.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2003, 09:43:06 PM »
 :o

Just read the review and I'm struck by Whitten's tone more than anything specific. Like seeking perfection in a course design when you were tired, just mailing it in?  

I liked the course, and like some actual guests at the resort whom I talked to, they couldn't wait to get back out and go at it again..

Big deal with number 4.. get your ball in the hole and move on, why the obsession over a pond of water, and as to waterfalls, did the idea of aeration ever pop into the brain cells to keep some dissolved oxygen in the water and keep it from going anaerobic and stinking? Maybe not but I thought it might be a reason..

Those routing ideas at the end leave me wondering if the course was even played or the reviewer is transposing vocations.  

For me 15 and 16 were definitely high points, but 17 feeds off of that high or low you just experienced and can seduce you into trouble and 18 demands some execution after a long round.  (I went bogy, bird, bogy, par closing in the dark with mosquitos swarming..)  Out of it all I want another crack at 15, even though we went back and quickly tried a second time while there..  

I put the UNM Champ course above TW in fun and BM easily above both of those.  
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

A_Clay_Man

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2003, 09:21:46 AM »
One of the other questions that came to my mind after reading this review was "when did he play it?" The native grasses and wildflowers that embrace almost every hole are really coming into their own. And make for a beautiful package.

As for the waterfall... With a rock bridge to the green ala WWRO par 3 #? it is not some ridiculous cascading monster. It's a series of very small waterfalls of maybe a foot, with several tributaries creating the subtle tranquil sound of falling water. I wonder if critics of the concept have ever driven around the northern part of the state and Southern Colorado? Falling water of this type are in abundance mostly found around and near every mountain pass one must traverse.

Matt- You should've seen the course the sunday before the CPC. They didn't want to make the mistake made at Olympia fields so the rough was left looonnnnggg. I mean brutal 8 inches long.

One credible criticism of the course (was it mr whittens review?) is the lack of undulation and the lack of speed on the greens. For the resort mode most putts are rather unexciting. But when they did get the speed up to 13, 14 on Mr. Stimp, they were all you or anyone else could handle.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 09:26:49 AM by A_Clay_Man »

Matt_Ward

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2003, 09:45:53 AM »
Adam:

You don't have to convince / sell me on the merits of TW. However, if I had to list my top 100 I would not include the course -- that distinction would go to Black Mesa and Paa-Ko Ridge.

With that said -- I still enjoy the challenge that is TW and as someone who has played the tips on TW a few times I can fully appreciate what designer Gary Panks created -- if anyone believes that 7,700 yards is MUCH shorter even with the elevation please let me know. You must be able to drive the ball in order to score at TW. Yes, the greens are very big -- they should be given the wind that blows through the property on a daily basis.

I also agree with you regarding their overall speed. I played the following day after the National Club Pro and the greens were simply d-e-l-i-c-i-o-u-s!!! You need to be fairly accurate with your irons because relying on your putter to handle those greens from long range can be quite taxing on the nerves. I also agree with your assessment on the rough --simply finding the ball was a real chore if you didn't watch very carefully.

I don't doubt that TW lacks the overall majesty you find at Black Mesa and I stil believe (I know you dissent) that Paa-Ko Ridge is also well done and has a few more holes of quality than you find at TW.

No matter -- Twin Warriors provides a solid effort by Gary Panks and is one anyone should play when in the greater Albuquerque area IMHO.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2003, 01:13:24 PM »
George:

Ron Whitten may well be a mid to high handicapper, but I would not hold that against him. In fact, it may be an advantage because that level of playing skill applies to most golfers.

As for desert golf, it never really appealed to me that much and so my experience with it is limited. However, I would say that it is no more challenging for mid to high handicappers than other types of venues and it may even be less so. For instance, years ago I traveled to Scotland and played Turnberry with three groups of high single digit guys. Due to 70-75 mile an hour winds only one person - lucky me - managed to break 100. I can't imagine how mid to high handicappers would have fared but I'm sure they would find that kind of thing far tougher than playing something like PGA West.

As for Whitten's review, I haven't seen Twin Warriors and can't comment on the course directly. But, at least Ron Whitten stands up and suggests the 7,700 yard length is kind of silly. People in his position need to use their "bully pulpit" against the madness of the golf technology arms race. I'm happy to see him take one small step in that direction.
Tim Weiman

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2003, 01:24:01 PM »
 8)

one reason to like TW..  a sea level 240 yd hitter can hit one 300 on #16 if you find the turbo hill

I'd play PK Ridge over TW if only one opportunity was open
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 01:26:25 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2003, 01:33:07 PM »
Tim -

I'm certainly not holding RW's playing ability against him - I'm the highest handicapper on this board, so that would be kind of silly. I'm simply saying that, if true, it could be a reason he didn't enjoy the course and maybe it affected his review. I agree that a mid to high handicapper's perspective is more suited to most golfers & is something that I personally would like to see a little more of.

As for how high handicappers would fare at Turnberry in 70-75 mph winds, I'm guessing most wouldn't even try to play in these conditions. Heck, I'd guess most American golfers, regardless of playing ability, wouldn't play in a 70 mph wind. Hats off to 'ya. I'd give it a go, but I certainly wouldn't expect anything other than some laughable results.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2003, 01:53:37 PM »
Regrettably missing my chance to play the LOE GCA tour stop, I can't comment on any of the courses spoken of on this thread.  However, the process of the commentary is interesting to me as I read this with no personal frame of reference other than a review of pictures of the courses mentioned.

That process is:  Whitten arguably still has the wider reach in terms of impact of his GCA commentary.  He appears to me to have evolved or changed his tastes (in a manner that is yet unquantifiable to me as I have read his work over the years - but something is different).  Yet, guys I know and have in some instances played golf with and respect their GCA acumen, really take Whitten to the woodshed quite regularly in recent years.  This Twin Warriors subject is yet another example.  That leads me to think that someone that really is just getting into appreciation of golf design will probably find Whitten first.  Yet, as a matter of process of learning, won't be complete until he finds "us". ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2003, 07:58:54 PM »
 8)

RJ good point.

I think that those interested in gca should understand the need to play a course multiple times and reflect before giving their "ratings" or take ratings/opinions with a skeptical eye until they can confirm in person.  Not to say that pictures and other resources aren't important.  

I like George's opinion as a "beginner or less accomplished player" views things, though I've played many years for fun its only the last 5 years I've really paid attention to gca and I feel the better for it, and much more since lurking on this site and especially after playing with Ran!  
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Ron_Whitten

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2003, 05:51:34 PM »
Gentlemen - Whitten here. I make no pretense about being a good golfer. Last time I had an official handicap it was 14.3 and that's been three putters ago. I will try to "defend" my review of Twin Warriors by pointing out (as I thought I had in the review) that I was considering the course as a course that caters to resort golfers, and more specifically, to golfers drawn to that area by the casino and resort hotel.  No question that Twin Warriors can be a strong test of golf from the back tees with the rough brillo deep. But for paying customers, most of them first timers, I thought it was a bit awkward off many tees and into a few greens.

Why didn't I contact Gary Panks. I don't normally contact the course architect when I'm writing a cours review. Just like a moview reviewer doesn't normally contact the director when writing a movie review. Sometimes I have the benefit of knowing an architect's intent, from having talked with him or her about the particular course, or even playing it with them, but this wasn't one of those cases.  My comments about the waterfall fourth didn't stand or fall depending upon Mr. Panks' explanation. I simply don't like waterfalls in a desert setting and didn't think this course needed it.

It's nice to know that the piece got enough response to have people take me to task and/or disagree with my opinions and conclusions. That's what I hope every review I write does. I'm not always right. I never have all the answers. I simply try to take each course on its own merits, examining it for what it is supposed to be. In Twin Warrior's case, it was as a resort course. I thought, for the reasons stated, it came up short, as a resort course. Simple as that.


Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2003, 10:32:53 PM »
 8)

Thanks for those words Ron.  Always interesting to glimpse others logic!

I'm not so sure that resort golfers are as discriminating in choices of golf, as in choices for dining and room accomodations (especially when they're tired), and of course night-time entertainment..  All I want from a resort course is something really different than my home course conditions, different topography,  views, difficulty, and style.  My only question is, does it invite me back to try and settle some unfinished business?  In those regards TW fits the bill just fine.  That's my take, regardless of any greater gca issues.

I was wondering how many course you officially review in a year and writeup?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2003, 09:54:48 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike_Cirba

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2003, 10:47:25 PM »
Hi Ron;

I'm curious from your review to understand how much weight you place on a course's "intent" when you rate it.

Having never played TW, I have no way of comparing my opinion against yours, but I would like to know what might be different in your analysis had the course been a private club, for instance.

Generally, although I understand that different course styles often need to serve different masters, I'm less inclined to believe that certain "public" venues need to be "dumbed down" based on the level of play.  I've seen more than my share of less-skilled golfers who are members of private clubs to know that inept golfing skills know no such artificial boundaries.  

I guess what I'm saying is that a good course is a good course and visa versa, no matter the general playing clientele.  If I don't think a course provides pleasurable enjoyment, or inspirational, imaginative holes that one would relish playing, then I don't think it necessarily matters if the person playing it is a member, a local paying customer, or someone staying at the resort.  

What are your differentiating criteria with respect to the intent of different genres, and how do they affect your opinions of each, generally?

Thanks for your thoughts!  
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 10:48:59 PM by Mike_Cirba »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2003, 10:54:25 PM »
Mr. Whitten- Thanks for your fair response to some of my questions. I appreciate the perspective you were reviewing under, and grateful, I don't have that yoke. My perspective tells me New Mexico is fortunate to have the facility and hopefully it can survive economic realities and continue to offer state residents reasonable rates.

On the waterfall issue, I would agree that in most settings, they're as out of place as teats on a bull but it's there and that is just a fact. It really shouldn't enter the golfers mind until after he's found it. We all know the justification for waterfalls is typically more a function of  ego, and not the archies. Knowing the half partner is Hyatt, I wonder if that was a committee decision?

Do you find it helpful or easier to review a course with a certain perspective in mind?

Ron_Whitten

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2003, 02:43:15 PM »
Steve - As I am expected to produce a weekly course review for the golfdigest.com web site, that's 52 different course reviews a year.  So my objective is to write something a little different each week (nothing worse than a course review that's little more than a shot-by-shot, hole-by-hole recounting of how the sportwriter struggled with the course), and to examine each course on its own terms.  So sometimes my review is like a travel piece, more about the locale than the course. Sometimes it's about the architect. Sometimes it's the back story, how the course got built, etc. Sometimes, as with Twin Warrior, it's a more straightforward "movie" review: after playing it, here's my reaction.

Mike, I often try to consider the "intent" of the course, because that's what the owner and architect usually concentrate upon.  If it's a low-budget daily fee, it's hardly fair to scrutinize the course as a potential 100 Greatest layout and then list all its shortcomings. If it's a residential development course, I look at how well (or poorly) it integrates with the housing (or empty lots), how well it might help sell homes, how enjoyable it is to play given the usual constraints of housing courses, etc.  If it's a resort course, especially an upscale one, I consider how accommodating it is to first-time visiting golfers.  I have nothing against blind shots and hidden hazards. In fact, I love 'em. But they're local knowledge features that must be used sparingly when most of your play is resort tourists If Twin Warriors was a private club, I'd been less harsh about the awkward tee shots, because members invariable develop a feel for where to hit, even if the shot is not well defined (or is particularly ill defined.)  They'll aim for a far mountain peak, for instance. But first timers don't know those landmarks.

Clayman, I'm not sure I always approach a course with a certain perspective in mind, but I hope, as a writer, than one or two perspectives emerge by the time I've finished "studying" the course (playing it, touring it, photographing it, talking to people about the course).  At Twin Warriors, two perspectives emerged. One was the use of the natural land (which I thought was not as strong as it could have been, leading to those awkward tee shots I keep harping about) and the other was that it was an Indian casino related course, although I downplayed the big-bucks aspect of that particular phenomenon. Although I still think the waterfall exists mainly because there was plenty of money to build it and someone wanted a postcard waterfall hole. Sometimes, you can spend too much money on a course, or spend it unwisely.  With a good many water features on a good many courses, this is often the case.

I had one reader write me and say he'll stay away from Twin Warriors because of my review. I wrote back and urged him to play the course, telling him my reviews are meant to stimulate thought and discussion, not make or break owners. That's the problem with trying to be a critic. People reduce it to thumbs up or thumbs down. I thought I was giving Twin Warriors a more neutral vote, noting that the holes along Snakehead Mountain were worth the price of admission.  Somehow, everybody has focused on my criticisms of the place. That's to be expected, I guess, since I am pretty much a grumpy old man.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2003, 03:10:28 PM »
That's the problem with trying to be a critic. People reduce it to thumbs up or thumbs down. I thought I was giving Twin Warriors a more neutral vote, noting that the holes along Snakehead Mountain were worth the price of admission.  Somehow, everybody has focused on my criticisms of the place. That's to be expected, I guess, since I am pretty much a grumpy old man.

This phenomenon is certainly not unique to you, it's present everyday here on the site. Many times when people try to give honest evaluations of both positive & negatives, other posters misinterpret everything as one huge negative.

I hope you understood where I was coming from when I brought up your ability. I didn't mean it as a negative, simply that it might mean the course may play differently for differing levels of golfers and it is not always easy to project the impact it will have on golfers outside of one's level. I for one think that many architects don't think much of high handicappers while they're designing, or at least don't understand what high handicappers struggle with &, conversely, what they enjoy, though that might be to the benefit of better golfers.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A_Clay_Man

Re:Twin Warriors review by Whitten
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2003, 12:29:19 AM »
I honestly didn't think I was paintbrushing negatively but rather making my contrary observations on RW's review. I guess I could go point by point but whats the point? Funny though how the comment about moving the clubhouse closer to Snakeheads ridge mimics the criticism of Spanish Bay and how the hotel shouldn't be there, either. Makes me think that with this kind of review the clubhouse at Cypress point should've been moved to the 17th fairway.  :o