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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« on: June 16, 2017, 08:40:40 PM »
Well, is it?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2017, 08:44:22 PM »
yes
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2017, 09:23:48 PM »
Yes
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2017, 10:13:06 PM »
I don't think so
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2017, 01:17:05 AM »
Excellent article discussing the width and angles. It has a case study of the 10th hole to drive the point home as the hole locations in rounds 1 and 2 were on opposite sides of the green.


http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/erin-hills-strategic-design
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2017, 06:45:46 AM »
Is it?
Or is it just part of the safe corridor.
Does width with lost ball potential(for those without spotters) create real options for utilizing angles?.
Don't know just ask8ng
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCowan

Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2017, 09:08:42 AM »
According to Chambo, they are getting 15 yards more off the tee then your typical tour event.  I wonder how many yards the average US Open increases distance due to it playing faster.  15-25 yards off the tee seems very realistic to me. I think the effective width is being lost due to the weather, it isn't playing fast enough unfortunately.


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2017, 09:21:22 AM »
Excellent article discussing the width and angles. It has a case study of the 10th hole to drive the point home as the hole locations in rounds 1 and 2 were on opposite sides of the green.


http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/erin-hills-strategic-design


This is very cool. I'm just not sure I see enough of a pattern in the scattering of tee shots to draw the same conclusions the author seems to draw about whether the width is working the way width is supposed to work (and whether or not the players are using it with intention).


That said, I am a little intrigued by all the yellow and orange dots on the right side of the fairway from Thursday's round. It seems that playing up the "ideal" side might have been more risk than it was worth.


Jeff also makes a good point - if your 60 wide yard fairway is surrounded by major trouble on both sides, doesn't that kind of put us right back in the "aim down the middle" boat?


I've long been told that width challenges the good player with strategic decisions while accommodating the weak player with room to play. But after two days of surprisingly low scores on a 7800 yard course, shouldn't we at least ask ourselves if width comforts the good player, who can hit a good shot from almost any yardage as long as the ball is lying on the fairway, while allowing architects and maintenance teams to justify growing wildly long and thick native areas around each fairway that the not-as-good player will still find regularly enough to require plenty of provisionals and ball searches?


Or maybe Erin Hills just doesn't employ width as effectively as other "wide" modern courses. Or maybe the most elite players just hit the ball way too far. I'm open to discussion. But I think we at least have to ask the question of whether our width dogma is all a bunch of horseshirt.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 10:30:08 AM »
I got a note from one of my associates that Jason Day, in his post-round interview, said the width of the fairways made it harder for him to focus on the tee shots, and led to wilder misses.  And he said that the course DID reward placement from the tee.


Also, as my associate pointed out, if you've got a 60-yard wide fairway and the correct position is on one side, playing down the middle puts you further off line the wider the fairway is.


I don't see this as "resistance to scoring" but maybe it is not as easy off the tee as many think.  And it surely be better for next week when the course goes back to public play.  Sure beats listening to guys moan about playing out of the deep rough.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2017, 11:14:38 AM »
I have only played Erin Hills once so I am not an expert on the golf course, but I love the width.  As we all know, angles of play are most important when the playing conditions are firm and fast.  If the greens are soft and receptive they matter much less.


Erin Hills without width would be near unplayable for the even the best golfers on the planet let alone the average public player visiting the golf course. 


What this course shows, however, is how the best players in the world can obliterate a golf course if they are free to use their 330+ yard club on a regular basis (and almost every one of them playing this week can hit it that far or more).  Distance is of little concern to these guys.  They could stretch this course out to 8200 yards and it would mean nothing to them.  Koepka might have to hit a 6I into one of the par fours instead of the 7I which is the longest iron he has had to use into any of the par fours this week  ???


Distance has changed the game of golf in sooo many ways.  It is crazy how far the ball goes.   
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 07:03:50 PM by Mark_Fine »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2017, 12:19:22 PM »
Unless a course is poorly designed it is nearly impossible for width not to matter in relationship to angles.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2017, 02:13:33 PM »
Yes.


And what Tom D. and Mark F. said.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2017, 02:15:49 PM »
Don't forget many US Opens are played at par 70 on par  72 courses.  This year it is par 72 with 4 par fives so the scores naturally look lower in relation to par, width or no width...a pro looks at four 5pars as -4 to start a round ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2017, 10:13:17 PM »
Would anyone besides me, like to see the green surrounds cut tighter?  Many of those shots around the greens should present more options like putting or hybrid pitches,…, more “links-like” ground game options.  Most of the time the golfer’s only option is a flop shot and with tighter approaches and surrounds, the course would play more links like.   

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2017, 04:21:21 AM »
i am sure I'm in the minority, but i like this whole course setup for a change
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2017, 05:05:38 AM »
Would anyone besides me, like to see the green surrounds cut tighter?  Many of those shots around the greens should present more options like putting or hybrid pitches,…, more “links-like” ground game options.  Most of the time the golfer’s only option is a flop shot and with tighter approaches and surrounds, the course would play more links like.   


I'm not sure what your talking about...I saw many shots run away.  And I saw many shots run on.  An inch of rain can cause any turf to "slow down"...even if its cut tight.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2017, 08:20:26 AM »
Greg,
Balls do run away at Erin Hills but shot options are very limited playing from the surrounds. I was just out at Bandon Dunes and the surrounds are completely different (cut much tighter allowing all kinds of ground game options).  The greens are like extensions of the fairway (Oakmont has the same especially in the approaches). 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 09:14:15 AM »
Greg,
Balls do run away at Erin Hills but shot options are very limited playing from the surrounds. I was just out at Bandon Dunes and the surrounds are completely different (cut much tighter allowing all kinds of ground game options).  The greens are like extensions of the fairway (Oakmont has the same especially in the approaches).


Not being there, I don't know how tight EH is cut, and obviously the weather's not helping ......but
I see super tight cuts actually eliminating options these days as the average golfer(check that-virtually anybody) lacks the skill to hit anything off those super tight lies-especially when soft- besides a putter or a hybrid-boring.
I'm guessing Bandon's are firm and not actually that short (as in .23 of an inch)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 09:43:24 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2017, 11:18:11 AM »
Nae wind, nae width issue.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2017, 11:29:22 AM »
Greg,
Balls do run away at Erin Hills but shot options are very limited playing from the surrounds. I was just out at Bandon Dunes and the surrounds are completely different (cut much tighter allowing all kinds of ground game options).  The greens are like extensions of the fairway (Oakmont has the same especially in the approaches).


Not being there, I don't know how tight EH is cut, and obviously the weather's not helping ......but
I see super tight cuts actually eliminating options these days as the average golfer(check that-virtually anybody) lacks the skill to hit anything off those super tight lies-especially when soft- besides a putter or a hybrid-boring.
I'm guessing Bandon's are firm and not actually that short (as in .23 of an inch)


Why is it boring to use a putter or hybrid from off the greens on courses like this. Those shots are the norm on true links courses. It takes a lot of creativity to use a hybrid in that scenario especially if there are rolls and humps in the greens and surrounding terrain. One of my favorite features of The Loop is this kind of architecture around the greens.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2017, 11:42:00 AM »
Jeff,
A tighter cut would add options similar to what it does at a true links course.  Think about all the options around the greens at St. Andrews.  Or even think about Pinehurst #2. 


The wind is up today and it should bring back the challenge and a more difficult test.   Some guys under par so far but it will be much harder.  Wonder if balls will blow around on the fast greens?  Could become an issue. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2017, 12:29:00 PM »
Greg,
Balls do run away at Erin Hills but shot options are very limited playing from the surrounds. I was just out at Bandon Dunes and the surrounds are completely different (cut much tighter allowing all kinds of ground game options).  The greens are like extensions of the fairway (Oakmont has the same especially in the approaches).


Not being there, I don't know how tight EH is cut, and obviously the weather's not helping ......but
I see super tight cuts actually eliminating options these days as the average golfer(check that-virtually anybody) lacks the skill to hit anything off those super tight lies-especially when soft- besides a putter or a hybrid-boring.
I'm guessing Bandon's are firm and not actually that short (as in .23 of an inch)


Why is it boring to use a putter or hybrid from off the greens on courses like this. Those shots are the norm on true links courses. It takes a lot of creativity to use a hybrid in that scenario especially if there are rolls and humps in the greens and surrounding terrain. One of my favorite features of The Loop is this kind of architecture around the greens.


Not boring at all.
But it should be one of many options.Putt, hybrid, 5 iron, 7 iron, 9 iron, hooking it to impart tumble, cutting it to stop it or dance onto./around a tier, pitch it, flop it, slide cut it etc.
When it's cut too tight putting/hybriding can become the only option with no temptation for the heroic or dangerous shot.
 Need some grass to execute such shots-actual links courses present these choices-many modern agronomized courses don't

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2017, 01:05:40 PM »
Greg,
Balls do run away at Erin Hills but shot options are very limited playing from the surrounds. I was just out at Bandon Dunes and the surrounds are completely different (cut much tighter allowing all kinds of ground game options).  The greens are like extensions of the fairway (Oakmont has the same especially in the approaches).


Not being there, I don't know how tight EH is cut, and obviously the weather's not helping ......but
I see super tight cuts actually eliminating options these days as the average golfer(check that-virtually anybody) lacks the skill to hit anything off those super tight lies-especially when soft- besides a putter or a hybrid-boring.
I'm guessing Bandon's are firm and not actually that short (as in .23 of an inch)


Why is it boring to use a putter or hybrid from off the greens on courses like this. Those shots are the norm on true links courses. It takes a lot of creativity to use a hybrid in that scenario especially if there are rolls and humps in the greens and surrounding terrain. One of my favorite features of The Loop is this kind of architecture around the greens.


Not boring at all.
But it should be one of many options.Putt, hybrid, 5 iron, 7 iron, 9 iron, hooking it to impart tumble, cutting it to stop it or dance onto./around a tier, pitch it, flop it, slide cut it etc.
When it's cut too tight putting/hybriding can become the only option with no temptation for the heroic or dangerous shot.
 Need some grass to execute such shots-actual links courses present these choices-many modern agronomized courses don't


Jeff,


I couldn't agree more.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2017, 01:16:23 PM »
I couldn't disagree more 😊 Short grass presents all kinds of choices.  It can be a great "hazard" as well. I believe Rickie even played a lob wedge off the putting surface yesterday 😊  That was a pretty tight lie 😉

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is width doing its job at Erin Hills?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2017, 01:19:27 PM »
I couldn't disagree more 😊 Short grass presents all kinds of choices.  It can be a great "hazard" as well. I believe Rickie even played a lob wedge off the putting surface yesterday 😊  That was a pretty tight lie 😉


Short grass= Good
Too short grass= Not good


Rickie playing a lob wedge off a green doesn't make it a good option for almost everyone that plays golf.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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