Do you like where championship architecture is going RE: Erin and Chambers

[PCCraig]

It's too bad all the attention was on the bumpy greens because Chambers is 5x the golf course Erin Hills is, in my opinion. The golf I've seen so far has been incredibly boring. First and last US Open for Erin Hills.

[Phil McDade]

It's too bad all the attention was on the bumpy greens because Chambers is 5x the golf course Erin Hills is, in my opinion. The golf I've seen so far has been incredibly boring. First and last US Open for Erin Hills.

All depends on the ratings and attendance (the latter of which has been and will be solid). If Fowler/Dustin/Sergio are battling on the back nine Sunday in near-prime-time, and the ratings are solid, Davis will bring this thing back to EHills. He loves the place.

[Alex Miller]

It's too bad all the attention was on the bumpy greens because Chambers is 5x the golf course Erin Hills is, in my opinion. The golf I've seen so far has been incredibly boring. First and last US Open for Erin Hills.

That may be, and I can't comment on how it is for the guests out there at EH, but Chambers Bay had some of the worst on-site spectating ever for a major golf tournament. That is not an insignificant factor in why CB is unlikely to get another US Open.

[noonan]

Visually all the fescue is not attractive. The small jagged parts of the bunkers are just not attractive. I call it tricked up.

[Kalen Braley]

It's too bad all the attention was on the bumpy greens because Chambers is 5x the golf course Erin Hills is, in my opinion. The golf I've seen so far has been incredibly boring. First and last US Open for Erin Hills.

That may be, and I can't comment on how it is for the guests out there at EH, but Chambers Bay had some of the worst on-site spectating ever for a major golf tournament. That is not an insignificant factor in why CB is unlikely to get another US Open.

Alex, I suspect you're right.  IIRC correctly, weren't the two hills that sandwich #10 closed down to the public?  That's where I'd want to watch.  Based on what I saw on TV, 18 looked like the only good spot.

[Matthew Essig]

The golf I've seen so far has been incredibly boring.

I think that is due to the course losing all the fire from the rain earlier in the week

[V. Kmetz]

KG said:


Or is your main point that the course is too difficult, largely because of all the manufactured difficulty, and that there is a forced, over-designed element to the course that the older courses don't have, because their capriciousness is doled out in a more natural, more spread-out way?




I guess it's this latter comment of your post that best characterizes my initial reaction to the course...Seems EVERY hole has a 60 yard run off on three sides down a closely mown slope. Seems EVERY bunker has multiple 5 square foot finger, that if you get in, provokes a tragic loss of a US Open. Seems there are zero flat lies for anything but a tee shot.


From afar, I barely see an "honest" shot...even the one-shot holes are trying so hard to deceive, confound and break the player, I can't see the joy in it. With Chambers, and this, and Whistling Straits, I'm missing the satisfying "geometry" of the rota courses of classic bearing...


cheers
vk

[cary lichtenstein]

yes, love the look of the course, bunkers play like they should, etc

[Mark Provenzano]

...
 I think half these holes could be fretful for elite play at a course of 750 less yards.
...

I have found Chambers Bay to be very playable for the high handicapper. The USGA did muck with that some, narrowing 5, and putting a stupid bunker in the middle of 18 right where the high handicapper needs to hit his second shot.

It has width! That is the thing this high handicapper needs to soften a course for my game.

Couldn't agree more--Chambers Bay was blast for me, Erin Hills a 5.5 hour death march that was anything but fun. Wind mattered way more than width the day I played Erin Hills.

[V. Kmetz]

 Earlier posts had JK and BC say:


JK:
"Honesty, me and my buds are sick and tired of the move up, everyone gets a trophy culture that is being forced on amateur golf. We have moved back to the tips and have never had more fun in our lives.[/size]
Careful or in a couple of years you won't even need to pay attention to the road on your drive to the club. Autonomous cars, peckers and euphoria...It's either here or on the way so is it too much to ask for a hard par? "


&


BC
"Can't we have one manly event a year. In 30 years they all be chicks[/size][size=78%] "[/size][/size]


Guys, we get it, but male identity is not in question; the worth of directing enormous energy, expense and national profile into a golf course that is manufactured for golf difficulty and elite challenge is the question and heart of the critique. It should be in the preamble of this GCA site, that we all recognize that it is no trick to make something difficult...I could make a hole into your desk garbage can from your desk that you can't break double-digits on when you don't ace it.  Where is the art, the cunning, the enjoyable in that?


JK: I do not doubt you and your fellows are having a hoot from the tips; golf IS largely about the company you keep and the competitive juices of individually tackling a known hardship...but you're also playing a match, right? Yeah I could play my three oldest golf buddies on the side of a cliff from 10,000 yards and have a good time. And there are plenty...PLENTY of hard pars in the rota currently.


BC: What is unmanly about the other elite championships, courses or touring schedule?[/font][/color]

[Kalen Braley]

VK,


I was hoping you could clarify my question in reply #7.  I am certainly interested in your take on this as your issues with the course seem to be traditionally sought after values of a well conceived course...

[Garland Bayley]

...
I'm missing the satisfying "geometry" of the rota courses of classic bearing...


cheers
vk

Vinnie is pining for boring!

[John Kavanaugh]

V,


I prefer victories to settlements. I also think one victory is equal to five failures. 14 difficult drives provide 14 opportunities for a victory. Each can be said for the following shots, difficult approach, difficult recovery, difficult putt. A wide open pitch and putt only offers failure unless you may be so lucky to make a number of birdies. That's not my game or most people I know.


In other words, why should only the high handicappers have all the fun?

[Peter Pallotta]

I've been following it on my computer, via the 'shot tracker' that comes with the USGA scoreboard - you know, with the overhead picture and the shot-by-shot direction & distances for every player on every hole. It's interesting to look at it that way. Not distracted by what for me is the visual busyness, you can better see a) the geometry of the design, and b) that the successful golfers are the ones playing that geometry smartly and well. With player after player: when they've chosen and hit the good lines for approach shots, they come away with par or better; just average shots/wrong lines and it's a par or worse; into the fescue and whether it's Na or Rory it's a bogey.
The width is playing out as it should.

[Mike Sweeney]

Love what I see at Erin Hills.


I just got a tee time for Bethpage Black, and I am taking 3 rookies next Thursday. So much for the 6000 yard "fun courses" in Maine

[Frank M]

I haven't been to Erin Hills, but from what I see I don't like it because it looks expensive to play and more work than fun. A 9 mile walk? I want to golf not go for a hike. I suspect that's what Erin Hills wants me to do with these comments and that green fee.

[Jim Hoak]

When we talk about modern tournament courses, natural vs. unnatural, manufactured, etc.--don't forget to think about water usage.  Water is the single biggest issue facing golf going forward.  I think in spotlighting Chambers Bay and Erin Hills, the USGA is trying in some way to tell golfers that they need to appreciate that the course of the future will need to be more sensitive to water issues.
I don't think that Erin Hills is totally about water in any way, but the use of fescue, etc. is somewhat about water.  Let's not neglect that issue in our discussion of courses.

[Kalen Braley]

I haven't been to Erin Hills, but from what I see I don't like it because it looks expensive to play and more work than fun. I mean a 9 mile walk? I want to golf not go for a hike...although I suspect that's what Erin Hills wants me to do with these comments and that green fee 

Frank I already debunked the 9 Mile myth.  Its "only" 6-6.5 miles, which is still long, and with the hilliness would seem even longer.

[Frank M]

Frank I already debunked the 9 Mile myth.  Its "only" 6-6.5 miles, which is still long, and with the hilliness would seem even longer.

Not sure how you debunked it Kalen, but based on my game 6-6.5 miles will still probably result in about a 9 mile walk all the same.

Nothing I've seen on television makes me yearn to play Erin Hills. And when I look at the green fee I regret even watching it on tv.

[Kalen Braley]

Frank I already debunked the 9 Mile myth.  Its "only" 6-6.5 miles, which is still long, and with the hilliness would seem even longer.

Not sure how you debunked it Kalen, but based on my game 6-6.5 miles will still probably result in about a 9 mile walk all the same.

Nothing I've seen on television makes me yearn to play Erin Hills. And when I look at the green fee I regret even watching it on tv.

I used Google earth to measure the course from 1st tee to 18 green.

[Mike Hendren]

I am a staunch fan of golden age architecture.  That said, I've played Chambers Bay and Erin Hills twice each and think them worthy of hosting a national championship.  Neither is the death march they've been portrayed to be.  The collection of two shot holes at Chambers Bay is as good as one will find on any U. S. course in my opinion.  I find the architecture at Erin Hills to be a little more clumsy as in places the land is perhaps too dramatic for my liking.  However, some of that has been alleviated by subsequent changes, notably the 10th.  Visually, EH has been improved dramatically by the tree clearing and focus on cultivating the native areas.  Both courses are open and expansive broad-shouldered venues with excellent turf. Heck, in my first round at EH with the esteemed Dick Daley I didn't lose a ball. 

I can't fathom that most posters  here wouldn't enjoy a round at either course.  It's no small feat for a course to challenge the world's best, yet still be fun and enjoyable for the likes of me.

Bogey

[Garland Bayley]

...

Not sure how you debunked it Kalen, but based on my game 6-6.5 miles will still probably result in about a 9 mile walk all the same.
...

Not sure what you mean "based on my game" but if you hit a 250 yard drive 50 yards off line, you have advanced 245 yards down the hole. So if you are crooked, you can add 2% to Kalen's measurement.

[Kalen Braley]

...

Not sure how you debunked it Kalen, but based on my game 6-6.5 miles will still probably result in about a 9 mile walk all the same.
...

Not sure what you mean "based on my game" but if you hit a 250 yard drive 50 yards off line, you have advanced 245 yards down the hole. So if you are crooked, you can add 2% to Kalen's measurement.

Exactly Garland,


Unless someone is hitting dozens of shots sideways across the fairway, you aren't adding much more than a few % to your walking distance for the day.

[Frank M]

Not sure what you mean "based on my game" but if you hit a 250 yard drive 50 yards off line, you have advanced 245 yards down the hole. So if you are crooked, you can add 2% to Kalen's measurement.

It was a self-deprecating joke. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
That said, it may not be 9 miles, but I'd bet any Google maps estimates are at least a mile under reality.
...

The Google maps measurements I have done come out spot on for yardages when compared to course scorecards. So I don't know how you can suggest they are 16% off.