Do you like where championship architecture is going RE: Erin and Chambers

[V. Kmetz]

Hello,


Like most of you, I've been getting familiar with Erin Hills. Even forecasting it for my own golf at 1500 yards less, it's hard to see something amazingly good or novel out of it.


To me it just looks so "faux" and so full of hyperbole manufactured for challenge...all these collection areas and crowned green pads and uneven lies and capricious fingers in the bunkers. I don't know why they are holding back on the tees... they should be on sideslopes too; hell, put the tees in the bunkers; that would be memorable.


And while I'm sure the whole of it up close and in 3D is a beautiful landscape, as individual tests of golf and holes that will linger in the mind, it all kind of gels with an unfriendly (to enjoyable golf) sameness. I'm not even talking about the extreme length in the least, I think half these holes could be fretful for elite play at a course of 750 less yards.


While I understand the intent to build something in a naturalistic style that accords the maximum links values a select property offers, a course such as this seems to constantly remind me of how manufactured those results can turn out.


One value of true natural architecture as found in vintage links is that design was just behind man's use for play...Now, we're "ahead" of play, determining the capricious results that will result if you miss the large plateau pad on the hill, where the flagstick is...intentionally setting mowing patterns and selecting which natural depression will get sand, expose sand and which will not, where the fescue starts.


It's every bit as designed and managed as Baltusrol is, and kind of unfriendly in a brutish, withering way as the critiques of Baltusrol sounded last year...almost "boring" in the way Baltusrol is among the championship rota of Early Age courses.


The ironic thing is, like Chambers Bay, this is probably a fantastic course to view/play a professional match, but as a test of medal golf in an important championship...it merely has designed facilities of mass for hosting a major championship. If that is one of its virtues, I'd rather seen them return to Bethpage, Torrey, Medinah, Congressional, or something bigger, a little "meh" but older school than launch courses "intended" for a US Open.


I could be wrong, we'll see, but this course is going to pick the winner, and I don't know if it will pick from the world's best handful.


cheers
vk

[jeffwarne]

No worries-in 20 years these will be "boutique Opens and they will have 9500 yard 10 mile hike courses-


Erin Hills is a beautiful place and unkempt fescue aside(setup issue), is an interesting testing layout for the modern game.
Those players complaining about the size and the walk in the event might want to think about the effect of their fat equipment contracts on the size of the fields they play on.


To me it would be simpler to follow other sports lead and rein in technology rather than bastardizing classics or building modern sized tests, but it has been going on for hundreds of years so what do I know.


I'm looking forward to watching

[Peter Pallotta]

VK
I'm trying to decide how much and how well I'm seeing, or not seeing. Currently I'm being thrown off an appreciation of the course's essential architectural merits by the busyness of the finishing work, ie the many textures and lines and abruptly anticipatory green-pads. I recognize/admit that these visual elements don't tell me anything about the inherent quality of the design, playing-wise. But I also have to admit that they do leave me with a distinct impression nonetheless. I think I would've known that EH was 'custom built' without ever having read or been told about it.

[Keith Grande]

I applaud the bunker design.  Bunkers weren't meant to be hit into as a safety net.

[Joe Schackman]

I could be wrong, we'll see, but this course is going to pick the winner, and I don't know if it will pick from the world's best handful.

Well there is no denying that Chambers Bay did a fantastic job in this regard. That leaderboard could not have been more stacked with household names and great players (going in order):

Speith
Dustin
Louis
Branden Grace
Adam Scott
Cameron Smith (just won on the PGA Tour)
Charl Schwartzel
Snedeker
Day
Shane Lowry
Rory
Kisner
Kuchar
Finau
Reed

[Phil McDade]

I think it's always tricky to try to assess major courses and the merits of their architecture with a leaderboard and eventual winner. Plenty of majors on great courses have been won by mediocre players, and plenty of greats have won on less-than-great courses.


As for the Chambers-EHills future of golf, this is where the game is headed (for majors) absent any attempt by the governing bodies to constrain equipment (and money, in all candor).


I also don't quite get the criticism of EHills for being manufactured; there is little out there that is manufactured, particularly the green sites, which all sit on natural terrain. Its bunkers, to me, have a less manufactured look than those on The Old Course.


Folks may not think it's a great course -- I think it has its strengths and demerits -- but it's a lot less manufactured than Medinah, to cite one example.

[jeffwarne]

I also don't quite get the criticism of EHills for being manufactured; there is little out there that is manufactured, particularly the green sites, which all sit on natural terrain. Its bunkers, to me, have a less manufactured look than those on The Old Course.


Folks may not think it's a great course -- I think it has its strengths and demerits -- but it's a lot less manufactured than Medinah, to cite one example.

+1

[Kalen Braley]

V Kemtz,


I'd like to specifically address this:"all these collection areas and crowned green pads and uneven lies and capricious fingers in the bunkers"
I was under the impression that these are attributes that GCA appreciates/aspires to. 
- TOC is full of collection areas and Pacific Dunes 16 has the nastiest collection ever I've ever played.
- Pinehurst #2 is the mother of crowned greens, and I think its viewed well here.
- Uneven lies aka rumpled fairways - I don't think I have to explain this, there are few things more highly regraded in the treehouse than this.
- Bunker fingers - I can kind of see your point on this one, but don't we also espouse penal bunkering as a virtue?

[Joe Hancock]

 One of the reasons we keep seeing these types of golf courses pop up is because we are told that is what is required to test the modern golfer. What golf course could they play that wouldn't  adequately test the golfer? Are we in a culture where we always have to have more test? And what are we really expecting to learn from them being tested? It all seems a bit masochistic to me

[Thomas Dai]

One may be glacial and the other sandy heathland but there appear to be similarities - Erin Hills, Wisconsin, USA 2017 or somewhere in Surrey, UK during the period 1890-1935?
atb

[Keith Grande]

With respect to "faux" links, Erin Hills looks much more natural than Whistling Straits.  There are many shots which require aerial approach, but I wonder about recovery options around the greens and 100+ yards and in.

[BCowan]

I also don't quite get the criticism of EHills for being manufactured; there is little out there that is manufactured, particularly the green sites, which all sit on natural terrain. Its bunkers, to me, have a less manufactured look than those on The Old Course.


Folks may not think it's a great course -- I think it has its strengths and demerits -- but it's a lot less manufactured than Medinah, to cite one example.

+1

+2, it's not a links it's a prairie for the 4th time.


Can't we have one manly event a year. In 30 years they all be chicks. 

[Keith Grande]

When they start carrying their own bags, then we can use the word "manly".

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the reasons we keep seeing these types of golf courses pop up is because we are told that is what is required to test the modern golfer. What golf course could they play that wouldn't  adequately test the golfer? Are we in a culture where we always have to have more test? And what are we really expecting to learn from them being tested? It all seems a bit masochistic to me

Honesty, me and my buds are sick and tired of the move up, everyone gets a trophy culture that is being forced on amateur golf. We have moved back to the tips and have never had more fun in our lives.


Careful or in a couple of years you won't even need to pay attention to the road on your drive to the club. Autonomous cars, peckers and euphoria...It's either here or on the way so is it too much to ask for a hard par?

[BCowan]

Tour caddies are 1%ers

[Joe Hancock]

One of the reasons we keep seeing these types of golf courses pop up is because we are told that is what is required to test the modern golfer. What golf course could they play that wouldn't  adequately test the golfer? Are we in a culture where we always have to have more test? And what are we really expecting to learn from them being tested? It all seems a bit masochistic to me

Honesty, me and my buds are sick and tired of the move up, everyone gets a trophy culture that is being forced on amateur golf. We have moved back to the tips and have never had more fun in our lives.


Careful or in a couple of years you won't even need to pay attention to the road on your drive to the club. Autonomous cars, peckers and euphoria...It's either here or on the way so is it too much to ask for a hard par?

 Wow. Seems like just yesterday when you moved up to the forward tees and played with fewer clubs while your wife walked along with you. What changed?

[John Kavanaugh]

I was under a false sense of security which always leads to boredom. Every vice in my life is a direct result of being bored.

[BCowan]

Honesty, me and my buds are sick and tired of the move up, everyone gets a trophy culture that is being forced on amateur golf. We have moved back to the tips and have never had more fun in our lives.


Careful or in a couple of years you won't even need to pay attention to the road on your drive to the club. Autonomous cars, peckers and euphoria...It's either here or on the way so is it too much to ask for a hard par?

+100.  Thank you!

[Joe Hancock]

Name the last golf tournament that had more than one champion? #brokenrecord

[John Kavanaugh]

Name the last golf tournament that had more than one champion? #brokenrecord

Q school.

[Kalen Braley]

Name the last golf tournament that had more than one champion? #brokenrecord

#Rydercup
#Solhiem Cup
# NCAA tourney

[Garland Bayley]

...
+2, it's not a links it's a prairie for the 4th time.
...

Have you actually seen a prairie?

[Garland Bayley]

...
To me it just looks so "faux" and so full of hyperbole manufactured for challenge...all these collection areas and crowned green pads and uneven lies and capricious fingers in the bunkers. I don't know why they are holding back on the tees... they should be on sideslopes too; hell, put the tees in the bunkers; that would be memorable.
...

Interesting that you choose a course that was reputedly created by just mowing out the landscape, and a course that was created by reclaiming a mine for the label "faux". One definitely was not, the other had to be.

And, OBTW, the ribbon tees at Chambers Bay can have a bit of sideslope too.

[Garland Bayley]

...
 I think half these holes could be fretful for elite play at a course of 750 less yards.
...

I have found Chambers Bay to be very playable for the high handicapper. The USGA did muck with that some, narrowing 5, and putting a stupid bunker in the middle of 18 right where the high handicapper needs to hit his second shot.

It has width! That is the thing this high handicapper needs to soften a course for my game.

[Kirk Gill]

While I understand the intent to build something in a naturalistic style that accords the maximum links values a select property offers, a course such as this seems to constantly remind me of how manufactured those results can turn out.


One value of true natural architecture as found in vintage links is that design was just behind man's use for play...Now, we're "ahead" of play, determining the capricious results that will result if you miss the large plateau pad on the hill, where the flagstick is...intentionally setting mowing patterns and selecting which natural depression will get sand, expose sand and which will not, where the fescue starts.

V, I'm just trying to get at what your criticism of the course is really about. It sounds like you're saying that on "true natural architecture," the capricious results that ensue from various course features weren't intentionally created by man, so that's okay, while at Erin Hills, because they were the result of intentional design (perhaps even 'malice aforethought'), they have a different, "faux" feel.


Which makes me wonder what it is a designer is supposed to do. Just find a great piece of land, bring in some sheep and let them graze for a few years and see where the fairways, greens, and bunkers should be?


And does this mean that on the older, truly natural courses the designers weren't specifically creating playing areas that would create difficulty for the golfer? It's like that old Michelangelo saying - the statue was already there in the marble. I just needed to cut out the unnecessary bits. Did all the cool bits that are beloved on these courses just.....happen?


Or is your main point that the course is too difficult, largely because of all the manufactured difficulty, and that there is a forced, over-designed element to the course that the older courses don't have, because their capriciousness is doled out in a more natural, more spread-out way?


Or am I totally mis-reading your opinion? I do that.