fishhook holes

[Pete_Pittock]

To me fishhook holes have dogleg turns of 90 degrees or more, with some sort of buttress impeding progress across the dogleg.
I ran into one of these Friday at Stewart Park GC in Roseburg, OR. Lacking a camera we'll have to do with a scorecard diagram of the 6th/15th hole.
 
In par 5 mode it plays 435, which would require a 335 yd drive to reach the corner. As a par 4 the range is 290-340 with a drive along a flat, un-bunkered fairway.  When you reach the corner of the dogleg you see the green benched into the hillside about 60-80 feet above and maybe 100 yard away, fiercely guarded by trees on the left side. One of its victims was a golf rater (hdcp) who used a wrong adjective to describe it in a newspaper article. IMO it is the strongest hole at the municipal course (1960?, architect unknown).
How common is this type of hole?


 

[Tom_Doak]

These are very uncommon, because most of them stink.  I have seen only three or four out of 1500 courses.

[Mark Pearce]

These are very uncommon, because most of them stink.  I have seen only three or four out of 1500 courses.

Most of them?  You may be being kind.  Where are the good ones?

[Paul Carey]

A par 5 may not be bad.  A par 4 likely a bad idea.  Would number two at Bulls Bay be a fishhook?  A par 5 and a pretty good hole.

[Keith Phillips]

The 12th at The National in Toronto is a double-dogleg par 5...not visually a 'fish-hook' but has the same effect, as there's no way to access the green in two unless you are a really long hitter.

[Pete_Pittock]

     SPGC is a 9-hole facililty on a plot approx. 1000 yds N-S and 400 yards W-E. There is a ridge running diagonally through the site from NNW-SSE. The first five holes work to and from the ridge, with the fifth running to the clubhouse with little unused space.
     In this case I think the fishhook is a good choice because of a cramped area where you need four holes.Perching the 6th green on the hill allows for a decent 160 yd downhill 3 par to the isolated SE corner of the property. That leaves room to return with two 4s,
     I wouldn't argue with the routing. It uses the contours to a high degree, the 4/5 and 6/7 junction is good for a comfort area and the 5th returning to the clubhouse allows for refreshment/fortification and two one hour loops.

[Matt MacIver]

A par 5 may not be bad.  A par 4 likely a bad idea.  Would number two at Bulls Bay be a fishhook?  A par 5 and a pretty good hole.

I think it might, although the first leg, the long part of the drive and second shot, aren't straight but also curve into a near "U".  But I really liked the drive and second had my attention, out to 100 yards from the green.  From there the green scared me too much so I putted my rescue up to the green -- love the fast'n firm there! 

[Mark Kiely]

The 4th hole at Anaheim Hills fits this description, including near-universal hatred for it:
Screen Shot 2017-06-12 at 9.54.41 AM by Mark, on Flickr

[Bill Crane]

AAaaaggghhh !!

The 18th at Cranberry Valley -Harwich, Cape Cod.

575 yard Par 5 cut through the trees on rolling sandy terrain.   

Double dogleg right, without a good drive you can't get around first turn in the fairway properly.

Second shot is BLIND over a hill - good luck the first 10 plays.


Third shot is right angle from the second to green below the clubhouse.   If you don't get far enough out or left on second shot you have a really tough 3rd shot.  No real option to cut the corner.

Drives me crazy.

Otherwise, a pretty good layout for a public course on an interesting piece of land.   Cape Cod terrain has a very Pinehurst style feel with stronger wind.  Cornish and Robinson design - Cornish designed probably half of the courses built in New England since 1960**. 

Bill


** only a slight exaggeration

[Jason Topp]

Mankato Golf Club #2.  I hated it on my only visit:

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/mankatogc/aerial.htm?next=tour.htm#

[Eric LeFante]

The 6th hole at LACC North seems like a fish hook hole to me. I haven't played it. What do people think of the hole?

[Carl Nichols]

The 6th hole at LACC North seems like a fish hook hole to me. I haven't played it. What do people think of the hole?

In its current form, it can be played like a fishhook--the safest layup leaves a second shot that would be played at a 70-90 degree angle to the tee shot.  But from that layup and angle, the second shot is to a very narrow green with bunkers in front and in back. 


The alternative, and the reason I don't think it's a fishhook, is to fly the corner and leave a second that plays straight up the length of the green.  I think it's about 230 yards from the regular tee to the start of the fairway on that line, and even shorter tee shots on that line might bounce down the hill into the fairway.  When I played there, I hit driver directly at the green and had about a 15-yard, uphill pitch that didn't have to navigate any bunkers.  I suspect that's how I would play it every time--and I think typical fishhooks don't permit that as an option. 


 

[Howard Riefs]

Would number two at Bulls Bay be a fishhook?  A par 5 and a pretty good hole.

Bulls Bay essentially has two U-shaped par 5s, the 2nd and 13th.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Must be a Mike Strantz "trademark."
#2 at Royal New Kent
#11 at Tobacco Road

[Tim Martin]

Must be a Mike Strantz "trademark."
#2 at Royal New Kent
#11 at Tobacco Road

Doc-What about True Blue # 4?!   Now that's Stranzification!!!!

[David Davis]

These are very uncommon, because most of them stink.  I have seen only three or four out of 1500 courses.

Tom,


That has to be before you went on your current tour of Germany and Belgium. If you can't find more than 3 of these holes and yes they are all bad, I agree with you 100% then you are blocking them out of your mind like bad memories ha ha or just skipping all the average courses but I find that one hard to believe given the average is in my experience so low.


I can point out a few off hand.


Noordwijkse #5
La Bawette near Brussels #7 - this one is actually a Double fishhook as it's literally made like a bolt of lightening and plays as a par 5. One of the worst architectural holes I may have ever seen.
De Pan #5 this is the only blemish on this otherwise awesome course. fishhook hard right at the end of a par 5 around a big tree/forest area. Not the original green but a Hawtree update - that will soon be fixed.


In The Netherlands they are literally all over the place...painfully so.

[Thomas Dai]

The 7th at Atherstone - http://www.atherstonegolfclub.co.uk/hole-7
Atb

[Bruce Wellmon]

TMart,
I forgot that one, getting old.
If Tot Hill or Stonehouse has one we are on to something. (I don't remember one at Stonehouse but I haven't been there in 15 years.)

Must be a Mike Strantz "trademark."
#2 at Royal New Kent
#11 at Tobacco Road

Doc-What about True Blue # 4?!   Now that's Stranzification!!!!

[Michael Felton]

I just played (badly) one of these today. Rockville Links Club on Long Island. 16th hole: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6799484,-73.6255263,277m/data=!3m1!1e3


There's another one that is similar to this on Long Island as well at Pine Ridge. I think it's the 4th hole, but I've suppressed the memory: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pine+Ridge+Golf+Club/@40.8839751,-73.0021474,233m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e8415306d51d6b:0x50d209ba7cba2141!8m2!3d40.8894119!4d-73.0017762

[Kalen Braley]

A public course up in Spokane has a few of these as well...90 degree turns on the initial line of the play.  They are certified stinkers as well!!

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront hole 14,par 5.  Discussed in the Confidential Guide.  True Fishook. 2 straight shots and a 90 deg turn left.  The bend guarded by 2 bunkers to be avoided.

[Eric LeFante]

The 6th hole at LACC North seems like a fish hook hole to me. I haven't played it. What do people think of the hole?

In its current form, it can be played like a fishhook--the safest layup leaves a second shot that would be played at a 70-90 degree angle to the tee shot.  But from that layup and angle, the second shot is to a very narrow green with bunkers in front and in back. 


The alternative, and the reason I don't think it's a fishhook, is to fly the corner and leave a second that plays straight up the length of the green.  I think it's about 230 yards from the regular tee to the start of the fairway on that line, and even shorter tee shots on that line might bounce down the hill into the fairway.  When I played there, I hit driver directly at the green and had about a 15-yard, uphill pitch that didn't have to navigate any bunkers.  I suspect that's how I would play it every time--and I think typical fishhooks don't permit that as an option. 

Thanks Carl. It makes me wonder if only average to below-average players will lay-up left and everyone who is a decent player will go for the green. If the decision to go at the green is an easy one, is it because there isn't enough risk with going right at the green?

[Garland Bayley]

Here is the hole Pete started the thread on.



Here is another hole Pete is familiar with.



Perhaps with Tom Doak's sterling endorsement, I can eliminate the second one.

[Garland Bayley]

To me fishhook holes have dogleg turns of 90 degrees or more, with some sort of buttress impeding progress across the dogleg.
...

I think some of you are ignoring the "buttress" part of the definition given by Pete.
A lake is not a buttress, it makes a cape.

[Jason Topp]

Doc-What about True Blue # 4?!   Now that's Stranzification!!!!

To me - the Strantz examples are a fundamentally different proposition.  They are par 5's and provide for very interesting decisions. 

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