Clubs which are driven by the annual member guest tourney

[Jeff Shelman]

Let's be honest: Anybody who is a member of a private club in the US (and I am one) isn't getting an awesome value.

Clubs are selling softer, more difficult to quantify things. Faster play, more flexible tee sheet, better conditions, more attentive staff.

One of the other things is the ability to show off the club to your friends.

That is what this really is. There's certainly competition, but the event is really about making sure your guest has a great time.

In theory this is great. But it can certainly be expensive.

[Mike_Young]

Look,  no one said money was made on this.  If a beer is costing the club 90 cents then the member guest price is probably 1.50.  If the tee prize is $400 retail value then the member guest probably got it for $250 from the shop.  I'm saying when a club decide they need a new outdoor bar be que area with enough parking for a member guest away from clubhouse etc or they need new fire pits to accommodate a member guest.  Clubs don't need to do that stuff for one or two events per year.  You don't build a church for Easter Sunday.

[David Davis]

Mike,


I get where you are coming from. Over here in The Netherlands at my home club we have Golfweek. It's a much different beast than a US member guest but it is equivalent in that the course is usually in the best condition during this week. The other times it might be in this top condition is during a major even, i.e. European Amateur or National Open. We have 1000 members and are very private for standards here. Golfweek doesn't bring in any money as guests pay 10 euro greenfees. What I should add however, is that in my experience most private clubs in the US, likely yours included have a much higher standard on their average Monday/Tuesday (which ever one is just before maintenance day) than we do here during our best moment.


If it's not about money, it's about marketing or ego and public appearance. The club wants the members to be proud of what they have and where they are at. Maybe it would require to much extra costs to keep the course maintained at such a high level. Guess you would know that one.


I'd guess with few exception it's the same everywhere to a certain extent. I tend to agree with your point but perhaps have been beaten into submission that it's not realistic for clubs here in Europe to achieve.

[Mike Sweeney]

I'm saying when a club decide they need a new outdoor bar be que area with enough parking for a member guest away from clubhouse etc or they need new fire pits to accommodate a member guest.  Clubs don't need to do that stuff for one or two events per year.  You don't build a church for Easter Sunday.

Reading it differently now, and I completely agree.


I was working with a start-up once and the young CEO was taking cabs all over to NYC for meetings. It was literally in the thousands of dollars per month that he was running through expenses. I suggested he invest in a MetroCard (subway and bus monthly) , but that was "not-efficient" for his time.


He is gone, company is dead, but there are lots of cab drivers that miss him.

[BCowan]

Look,  no one said money was made on this.  If a beer is costing the club 90 cents then the member guest price is probably 1.50.  If the tee prize is $400 retail value then the member guest probably got it for $250 from the shop.  I'm saying when a club decide they need a new outdoor bar be que area with enough parking for a member guest away from clubhouse etc or they need new fire pits to accommodate a member guest.  Clubs don't need to do that stuff for one or two events per year.  You don't build a church for Easter Sunday.

Mike,
 
     That is Country Club life. That won't change till the next bust.  $1.50 is all you charge for a beer?  Thats good living
 

[Matt MacIver]

We have a Member/Member over Memorial Day and the M/Guest the first week of October.  They are both sold out, very popular and the course is expected / worked to be in prime condition.  That's why these dates were selected.  We all know a course is either trending towards perfect or away from it and it can only be "perfect" for a short second -- maybe two weekends in the Fall and Spring.  Unless it's Augusta and closes all summer.  A normal course with 20-30-40k rounds a year can't have "perfect" conditions year-round. 

[Tim Martin]

Look,  no one said money was made on this.  If a beer is costing the club 90 cents then the member guest price is probably 1.50.  If the tee prize is $400 retail value then the member guest probably got it for $250 from the shop.  I'm saying when a club decide they need a new outdoor bar be que area with enough parking for a member guest away from clubhouse etc or they need new fire pits to accommodate a member guest.  Clubs don't need to do that stuff for one or two events per year.  You don't build a church for Easter Sunday.

Mike,
 
     That is Country Club life. That won't change till the next bust.  $1.50 is all you charge for a beer?  Thats good living

Ben-I think Mike's point was that the club will mark up the price of a beer at a MG and not that it is a $1.50.

[A.G._Crockett]

I belong to a 800 ember DR course built in 1927.  We are in a college town and our board usually consist of 35-40 year old frat boys with stepford wives.  Their main knowledge of golf is from resorts they have seen on incentivized business trips.  We have a great memorial tree program and a high maintenance level but tree infested.  The member/guest will happen next week and things will shut down for 4 days.  96 teams at 1200 bucks per team.  The golf course will be in it's best condition for those 4 days.  Two weeks after the tourney, things will begin for the next year member guest. 
My issue is why does a club try to be it's best when half the players playing those conditions are guest.  Why not focus on the daily member and present club championships and other events in the same conditions?  Am I right to think many other clubs do the same.  Is it right??

Mike,
I agree with you 100%, and I've never understood this either.  FWIW, when I've belonged to a club with this sort of member-guest, I've never even been able to afford to play in the damn thing!

The only thing I can figure out is that it's a tradition that a head pro/director of golf can't afford to buck, and that the main goal is to keep the big dollar core group at the club happy.  Beyond that, the whole thing is a mystery to me.

[Garland Bayley]

Look,  no one said money was made on this.  If a beer is costing the club 90 cents then the member guest price is probably 1.50.  If the tee prize is $400 retail value then the member guest probably got it for $250 from the shop.  I'm saying when a club decide they need a new outdoor bar be que area with enough parking for a member guest away from clubhouse etc or they need new fire pits to accommodate a member guest.  Clubs don't need to do that stuff for one or two events per year.  You don't build a church for Easter Sunday.

Mike,
 
     That is Country Club life. That won't change till the next bust.  $1.50 is all you charge for a beer?  Thats good living

Well, it's in a white can that says BEER in black. Not sure that's good living.

[Dave August]

I belong to a 800 ember DR course built in 1927.  We are in a college town and our board usually consist of 35-40 year old frat boys with stepford wives.  Their main knowledge of golf is from resorts they have seen on incentivized business trips.  We have a great memorial tree program and a high maintenance level but tree infested.  The member/guest will happen next week and things will shut down for 4 days.  96 teams at 1200 bucks per team.  The golf course will be in it's best condition for those 4 days.  Two weeks after the tourney, things will begin for the next year member guest. 
My issue is why does a club try to be it's best when half the players playing those conditions are guest.  Why not focus on the daily member and present club championships and other events in the same conditions?  Am I right to think many other clubs do the same.  Is it right??

Mike -


You make a good point. I would hope that the course is in top condition more than for a few days per year.


My club does NOT have the problem you present. We host a few top notch events throughout the year, the MG is a big deal but the course is certainly in as good, if not better shape, for the month before and the month after the MG.


I would imagine a discussion w the pro, greens committee and a few casual drinks w some board members might be enough to see if there is anything that can be done to change the conditioning issue.

[Steve Lang]

   my $0.02...


Been a member at The WCC 25 years, can certainly afford, but have never chosen to play our member-guest; but I have observed its always predominantly been either the very business smoozing oriented type event, the perks of running your own business or being that good playing customer or the long term buddy-buddy outing with everything arranged (practice, breakfasts, lunches, tee gifts, golf, dinners, final celebration), just show and go!  I don't think I've ever met anyone who joined solely after playing in a m-g...


Course conditions always best of the year at start, perhaps better than club championship time... hate to see things get hacked up and greens sometimes forced to obscene speeds (but there does seem to be a higher quality ball to be found in the tournament's wake ;<)).  The scores never seem to be exceptional.


The budget is crazy big, and no one seems to care that the monthly MGA events' costs are bumped up to help support the m-g.  There's like 850 MGA members and tourneys are always full, so on it goes higher and higher, folks trying each year to out do or out smart the last...

There are some driven, the MGA officers in particular..  Most other members are much more bothered by the aeration schedule..

So for the fraction of club members that enjoy the m-g event, I say go for it.. I just get out of the way and watch in amazement, no problem.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

From a maintenance standpoint, our member guest involves split shifts (5am-8am; 5pm-dark), mowing all short grass at least twice per day at reduced heights from normal, zero overhead irrigation, dragging hoses, and generally busting ass.  In short, a crew can handle it for 4 days or whatnot but it is very far from sustainable in regards to the grass and the humans.  To expect those conditions beyond that week is silly.

[Frank M]

To expect those conditions beyond that week is silly.

If it's silly beyond that week why is it not just silly, period?

[Mike_Young]

Thanks for all the suggestions on casual conversations with boards etc.  I got it. 
Maybe some would understand this...you keep 27 holes of which only 18 are needed and really used.  And you maintain the extra nine at a minimum so that you can have it available to accomodate the team matches of the member guest.  Add in those annual maitenance cost and you lose...
Some still don't get my question....I don't care what they spend or how they maintain the MG tourney.  My question was how many clubs are driven by such a tourney.  Let me try and rephrase....would your club's mission statement be to first and foremost make sure the member guest is the best member guest it could Be?  Or would it be to provide the best golfing experience for the membership that can be provided for said budget throughout the year? 

[Rees Milikin]

Thanks for all the suggestions on casual conversations with boards etc.  I got it. 
Maybe some would understand this...you keep 27 holes of which only 18 are needed and really used.  And you maintain the extra nine at a minimum so that you can have it available to accomodate the team matches of the member guest.  Add in those annual maitenance cost and you lose...
Some still don't get my question....I don't care what they spend or how they maintain the MG tourney.  My question was how many clubs are driven by such a tourney.  Let me try and rephrase....would your club's mission statement be to first and foremost make sure the member guest is the best member guest it could Be?  Or would it be to provide the best golfing experience for the membership that can be provided for said budget throughout the year?

Why can't they do both?  Why does it have to be one or the other?

[Dan Herrmann]

I'm not a big fan of member-guest weeks, primarily because I don't drink and they're very expensive.  (I figure a chunk of the entry fee is for booze).   Don't get me wrong - I couldn't care less if others drink, I just don't want to pay for something I don't use.


But I'm a member of a for-profit club, and I'm A-OK with the events (men's and women's).   i can easily play elsewhere if I want - it's really not a big deal.


Actually, I'm really happy that our women's member guest takes place on a Sunday, and the course is closed until around 3:30pm.   Gender equity, I think, attracts new members, especially younger members.

[Niall C]

Mike's basic point is that clubs get their course to peak for a specific event that a lot of members might not play in, and if they do they have to pay extra for the privilege. In the UK the members guest events aren't nearly as big a deal as the US but we still have events that clubs tend to get their course to peak for. In the case of my club it is a couple of annual top amateur open events they have every year where 95% are non members.


How the members wish they could get that level of conditioning for the normal saturday fourball.


Niall

Id be interested to know which clubs have a Member/Guest or some sort of Invitational that includes guests, in where it isn't viewed as thee event of the year. Ive never worked at one. All clubs what to show off to their guests.

Tony

I was speaking from a Scottish/UK perspective and over here the member/guest events are far more modest one day affairs. Club championships and depending on the club, certain prestigious open events get the attention. However ask the ordinary members ie. non Committee members, and most of them would much rather have the course in peak condition for ordinary members comps.

I think that was the point MY was trying make but could be wrong.

Niall 

[Niall C]

Niall,
Where did I mention whether or not it was the event of the year?  I said most of our decisions are based on member guest tourney. 

Mike

I made no comment whether it was the event of the year. I think you are getting Tony's comment on my post mixed up with what I said.

Niall

[Ian Mackenzie]

96 teams at 1200 bucks per team. 

96 x $1200 = $115,200 + other stuff


Mike,


I am sure you took some very complicated classes at Georgia Tech, but high school math covers this


Honestly, it sounds like a great club, and I am sure I would skip this tournament.

I'm sure you realize that there are two ways to look at this: GROSS proceeds and NET proceeds.


$115,000 is GROSS.
Then subtract:


1. Thursday night cocktail party at $50/head (192 players x $50)
2. Friday night stag night @ $100/head
3. Possible Saturday night dinner for couples
4. "Tee gift" for 192 players (shoes, travel bag, etc.)
5. Non-cash prizes for flight winners and champions


$115,000 less:


- $10,000 cocltail party
- $20,000 Friday finner
- $15,000 Saturday dinner
- $20,000 "tee prize)
- $5,000 prizes
- $XX,XXX for breakfasts and lunches and drinks on all days.


$70,000 total not counting overtime of staff.


$45,000 net that goes against all the other stuff mentioned above.


Drives club revenue, keeps staff busy, draws attanetion to what potential your course has.


BUT, the priority should be:


1. The club's member/member tourney
2. Club championship
3. Then the member/guest

[Mike_Young]

Mike's basic point is that clubs get their course to peak for a specific event that a lot of members might not play in, and if they do they have to pay extra for the privilege. In the UK the members guest events aren't nearly as big a deal as the US but we still have events that clubs tend to get their course to peak for. In the case of my club it is a couple of annual top amateur open events they have every year where 95% are non members.


How the members wish they could get that level of conditioning for the normal saturday fourball.


Niall

Id be interested to know which clubs have a Member/Guest or some sort of Invitational that includes guests, in where it isn't viewed as thee event of the year. Ive never worked at one. All clubs what to show off to their guests.

Tony

I was speaking from a Scottish/UK perspective and over here the member/guest events are far more modest one day affairs. Club championships and depending on the club, certain prestigious open events get the attention. However ask the ordinary members ie. non Committee members, and most of them would much rather have the course in peak condition for ordinary members comps.

I think that was the point MY was trying make but could be wrong.

Niall

Niall,
You are correct.  That is what I was getting at.

[Carl Nichols]

1.  I don't think the member-guest at my club really drives any general decision-making about the course, conditions, or club.  It's held in early June, however, which is about the best time in the mid-Atlantic for conditions.  The other would be late September-October, but the days are shorter and (I assume) that would make things harder on the grounds crew. 


2. I seriously doubt we net significant revenue (if any).  We have 72 teams, for $86,400 in revenue.  We play a practice round Weds; split-field rounds on Thursday and Friday; and a full-field round on Saturday.  The following things are covered by that fee:


Weds lunch and dinner for players;
Thursday breakfast and lunch;
Friday breakfast and lunch;
Friday dinner for players and spouses;
Saturday breakfast and lunch;
All drinks at all times;   
$300/team in credit for merchandise;
Tents, music, whatever other ancillary stuff needs to be brought in; and
Any overtime.


The entrance fee also covers four guest fees (the club isn't out of pocket for that cost, of course, but there's some loss of other guest revenue during this period.)   


3.  Whether or not the club nets any revenue, I think it's a good weekend for the employees.  We do various things (like raffles) that benefit specific groups of employees; there's an expectation that flight and overall winners will hand out substantial tips; and having the clubhouse full of generally happy guys for four days means quite a bit more tipping. 
 

[Ed Brzezowski]

Well we just had our MG and it is easy to see the benefits the event has brought the club. All of our event boards have been funded by MG and MM events. And we charge a lot less than 1200 a team.

As far as getting the course " all done up" sometimes you wear your Sunday best to a dinner. It will be in great shape for the MM event too. A great number of members look forward to the three days, as does our chef who delivered some artery clogging outstanding food.

We always sell out in ten minutes and have a wait list. My club is a " ring around the collar" club in the Philly area. Far from an A club, but a great event.

[Ben Sims]

Mike,


I'd be shocked if the biggest net revenue events at your club didn't involve a coach speaking to the Touchdown club of ____. I was in your neck of the woods last fall to visit my dad and wow, have things changed just since my trips in the early and mid 2000s. It's a totally different vibe.

[Tim Martin]

1.  I don't think the member-guest at my club really drives any general decision-making about the course, conditions, or club.  It's held in early June, however, which is about the best time in the mid-Atlantic for conditions.  The other would be late September-October, but the days are shorter and (I assume) that would make things harder on the grounds crew. 


2. I seriously doubt we net significant revenue (if any).  We have 72 teams, for $86,400 in revenue.  We play a practice round Weds; split-field rounds on Thursday and Friday; and a full-field round on Saturday.  The following things are covered by that fee:


Weds lunch and dinner for players;
Thursday breakfast and lunch;
Friday breakfast and lunch;
Friday dinner for players and spouses;
Saturday breakfast and lunch;
All drinks at all times;   
$300/team in credit for merchandise;
Tents, music, whatever other ancillary stuff needs to be brought in; and
Any overtime.


The entrance fee also covers four guest fees (the club isn't out of pocket for that cost, of course, but there's some loss of other guest revenue during this period.)   


3.  Whether or not the club nets any revenue, I think it's a good weekend for the employees.  We do various things (like raffles) that benefit specific groups of employees; there's an expectation that flight and overall winners will hand out substantial tips; and having the clubhouse full of generally happy guys for four days means quite a bit more tipping. 
 

Carl-I don't hear of many MG's that last for four days. Has that always been the club's policy? Thanks.

[Carl Nichols]

1.  I don't think the member-guest at my club really drives any general decision-making about the course, conditions, or club.  It's held in early June, however, which is about the best time in the mid-Atlantic for conditions.  The other would be late September-October, but the days are shorter and (I assume) that would make things harder on the grounds crew. 


2. I seriously doubt we net significant revenue (if any).  We have 72 teams, for $86,400 in revenue.  We play a practice round Weds; split-field rounds on Thursday and Friday; and a full-field round on Saturday.  The following things are covered by that fee:


Weds lunch and dinner for players;
Thursday breakfast and lunch;
Friday breakfast and lunch;
Friday dinner for players and spouses;
Saturday breakfast and lunch;
All drinks at all times;   
$300/team in credit for merchandise;
Tents, music, whatever other ancillary stuff needs to be brought in; and
Any overtime.


The entrance fee also covers four guest fees (the club isn't out of pocket for that cost, of course, but there's some loss of other guest revenue during this period.)   


3.  Whether or not the club nets any revenue, I think it's a good weekend for the employees.  We do various things (like raffles) that benefit specific groups of employees; there's an expectation that flight and overall winners will hand out substantial tips; and having the clubhouse full of generally happy guys for four days means quite a bit more tipping. 
 

Carl-I don't hear of many MG's that last for four days. Has that always been the club's policy? Thanks.

Tim:


Wednesday afternoon is an optional 18-hole practice round.  I'd guess that 75% of the field plays in it. 


The other days are the official rounds:  two nine-hole matches each day against other teams in the flight.