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Tom_Doak

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Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« on: June 01, 2017, 02:22:06 PM »
In Mike Young's response to me in another thread he mentioned that he usually "appreciates courses more than holes."  I'm starting this thread to clarify what he means by that.  It's an interesting concept, and I guess I can think of a few examples where I feel likewise.


Generally, though, I've always been one to analyze golf holes first, and recommend based on those.  My reasoning has been that it's much rarer to find a course where all the pieces are arranged beautifully into a whole, than to find a great hole or two on an otherwise average course.  And I might learn something from the one great hole, whereas I doubt I'll learn something new from the "course as a whole".


But, maybe I'm totally wrong about that last assumption.  I've certainly been to some places recently [from the Himalayan G.C. to Shek O] where the course-as-a-whole was much more interesting than the sum of its parts, because it defied convention in some way or another.  So I'm curious where Mike is going with that ... or whether anyone else can cite examples of how the course-as-a-whole was instructive to them.

Mike_Young

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2017, 02:34:30 PM »
TD,
In my way of thinking, Pebble Beach and Cypress would be two examples.  I can appreciate the overall beauty of the places, the good holes and the bad holes and thus I appreciate the courses.  Outside of a couple fo the par 3's, I'm not sure any of the holes would be on a "best" list....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Connolly

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2017, 02:55:47 PM »
I'll cite links courses in general and I'll give two reasons why:


1 - Playing Scottish links was instructive in demonstrating the value of open space on a golf course. Open space brings the omnipresent vagaries of wind into play; a more potent, and sophisticated hazard than vertical obstructions.


2 - Although an individual links hole might demonstrate a portion of rumpled land, when one can survey large chunks of the course at one time, it drives home the point more sharply that what happens to the ball on the ground is important.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Bob Montle

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2017, 03:03:45 PM »
My contribution here is analogous to a non musician's opinion's of music.
I'm not an expert but I know what I like and/or appreciate.

Recollections of golf courses played or visited may be of the course  OR  of particular holes or both.
Mention Brora and I'll feel the wind and the sea spray.  Only a few individual holes come to mind but the emotions felt while playing will always be with me. 

It is the same with Machrihanish.  I remember the opening hole and a few others, but my overall memory is of lush greenness, wonderful roller-coaster greens and rippled fairways.
 
As for N. Berwick, many individual holes spring to mind along with the memories of how we tried to attack them.  I still can draw the holes from memory along with how I played them.  On the other hand, the pictures in my mind are also of the town, the cars parked along the course, the ocean views, playing from the beach and cutting the dogleg on number two, and the friendly greeting I received in the clubhouse. (It started to rain while I was upstairs at the bar, and they carried my bag into the locker room and wiped down my clubs.

There are courses I won't mention where I loved and/or hated certain holes and have repeatedly talked about them and described them with friends and debated as to the best way to play them and whether we thought them good or bad.  I remember these holes but care nothing about the course.

Here is question I would like to pose.  How much of some top rated courses appeal is their location and scenic beauty?

If you moved N Berwick up to the highlands and replaced the ocean with gorse it would still be a world class course with famous holes.  But would it be rated as highly as it is?  I would like to think so, but ...
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Benjamin Litman

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2017, 03:04:20 PM »
Tom,


When I joined this site, my first reviews were of the two courses at Streamsong. I broke with the majority in saying that I preferred your Blue Course to Coore & Crenshaw's Red Course. My reasoning was that the Blue Course cohered better, whereas the Red Course felt more like a collection of great individual holes. For me at least, coherence is hugely important in determining my feelings for a given course. That's not to say, of course, that courses with great holes can't cohere--arguably, the best courses have both the best holes and the best coherence--but I tend to remember and appreciate course-wide characteristics--apart from coherence, I'd include routing, charm, scale, feel, and environment--first, and individual-hole characteristics later.


I'll have much more to say on this later, but thought an example that hits close to home might help.


Hope all is well,


Benjamin
"One will perform in large part according to the circumstances."
-Director of Recruitment at Agahozo-Shalom Youth Village in Rwanda on why it selects orphaned children without regard to past academic performance. Refreshing situationism in a country where strict dispositionism might be expected.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2017, 03:05:47 PM »

The Beatles were said to be greater than the sum of their parts.....I guess it could happen in golf.  Its just another version of the debate between ranking golf courses by a strict point system vs. more organically, no?


Agree with the three examples above in PB, CP and many Scottish links.  For the latter, its almost like blind holes....we sort of give them a pass for design irregularities to the old links knowing their limitations, and how undeveloped the craft was at that time.  We enjoy the history, ambiance (which often improves with age) and other things, even if many of the individual holes are mundane.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2017, 03:07:38 PM »
Tom -
The *way* you see is a lot different than mine, and the *reason* you (look and) see is even more different. 
I can't think of a single course I've ever played where my lasting/dominant impression *wasn't* about the course more than the individual holes.
Yes, those 1 or 2 (or 4 or 6) wonderful golf holes do stand out, both in the playing of them and later, upon reflection. But I can't go back to a given course and cherry-pick those few outstanding holes, i.e. I'm not in a position to play golf that way, e.g. starting at the 2nd and skipping to the 14th, and then finishing off with the 8th.   
My *experience* of the game of golf, at any given course, is the common one:
I drive through a certain kind of countryside and park in the lot and wander to the clubhouse - visual images and sense-reactions impressing themselves upon me the whole way.   
I carry my bag and step up to the first tee, and I hit my first shot and then walk and play those 18 golf holes just as the architect intended.
In that context, *everything* matters, and everything factors (either consciously or not) into my lasting/dominant impression:
does the course look and feel like the same as the countryside I've just driven through, or instead is it clearly (or even crudely) manufactured;
is the walk pleasant and flowing, or am I constantly being twisted around like a city-slicker lost in the woods;
hole after hole, does the architect tend to consistently (and even cynically) pander to the rabbit in me, instead of challenging himself and the average golfer to do better;
is the putting generally as fun/interesting as the driving and the approach shots (or are any of those elements good at all/better than the other);
do I feel at peace and engaged and focused, or instead is it as if I'm in the 2nd act of a tedious theatre piece where all I can think of is how much my a-- hurts from sitting so long
You get the idea.
I can take photos of the 2 or 3 great holes on a course and bore my friends with them; or I can come here and blather on about the 8th at Crystal Downs and bore you and others with it. But besides that, what good do those golf holes do me if I can only play them *as part of* an 18 hole course that I otherwise found, say, visually unappealing and monotonous? 
In short: the appreciating of a few outstanding golf holes serves, for me, an "objective" and "social" function, i.e. it is mainly fodder for discussion with others; the appreciating of the golf course as a whole, on the other hand, serves a "subjective" function, i.e. it is my own personal experience and enjoyment.
I would not be a sane person, I don't think, if I put satisfying the superficial wants of others ahead of being present to/honouring my own inner experience.
But that's because I'm just a golfer, and not a golf writer or rater or architect.   
As a golf course architect, I don't think that subjective-objective 'division' applies for you in the same way, nor do you have the luxury to simply *experience* a golf course; you are almost always also *learning* and often *teaching* as well.
Indeed, your task, it seems to me, is to turn the subjective *into* the objective, so that others later can enjoy what you first appreciated.       
Peter   
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 03:55:53 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike_Young

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2017, 03:12:28 PM »
As I have thought more on this, I don't think I know of a great hole ( in my mind) with houses on both sides and also in my mind, I don't know of a great course designed that way.  It was a really dark period....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ira Fishman

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2017, 03:18:19 PM »
I am a fan of the Highlands at Primland.  Other than perhaps the 7th, it does not have a single great hole.  But it is such an unusual setting being built on top of the ridges of the mountains and Steel did such a good job using the breadth, contours, and views that as whole the course is very appealing not just because it is visually dramatic but because it is interesting, challenging but not close to unfair, and a lot of fun to play. 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 03:26:47 PM by Ira Fishman »

Eric LeFante

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2017, 03:43:24 PM »

The Beatles were said to be greater than the sum of their parts.....I guess it could happen in golf.  Its just another version of the debate between ranking golf courses by a strict point system vs. more organically, no?


Agree with the three examples above in PB, CP and many Scottish links.  For the latter, its almost like blind holes....we sort of give them a pass for design irregularities to the old links knowing their limitations, and how undeveloped the craft was at that time.  We enjoy the history, ambiance (which often improves with age) and other things, even if many of the individual holes are mundane.




I'm glad you brought up The Beatles Jeff; When I read Tom's initial post, I instantly thought of the Sgt Pepper's album. The album was meant to be played from start to finish and I think the flow is wonderful. Before CDs and MP3s albums were meant to be played from start to finish, not skipped around between songs.


I think the flow of Somerset Hills is wonderful, even though the holes and the nines are very different. They switched the nines in the 90s and I would have been against that move because I think holes 11 and 12 and that corner of the course is too special to be played as the second and third hole of your round (don't like 15 as the 6th hole for the same reason). 18 finishing right below the terrace is wonderful as well. Holes 7 and 8 are brutally tough and hole 9 as a par 5 is an interesting finish, but it just doesn't work as well when those are the finishing holes. There is something great about playing the front nine out in the open, playing holes 11 - 16 up and down the hills, in the woods, along ponds and streams, and then emerging back out in the open for holes 17 and 18.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 03:45:52 PM by Eric LeFante »

Jim Hoak

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2017, 03:47:32 PM »
Ira, I don't know the Highlands at Primland, but I was thinking in general terms the opposite of what you are saying.  I have seen some good holes--but never a really good course--built on land with great elevation changes.  I think back to what I once read in a description of what makes a great course--"first start with a piece of gently sloping land."

Ira Fishman

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2017, 04:09:24 PM »
Jim, I probably am a sucker for elevation changes--it may be that the visual has a bigger role than I care to admit.  I also like Red Sky (Norman) quite a bit.  One of the really neat things about Primland is that with a couple of exceptions most of the big changes are downhill so the course seems the opposite of a slog.  Steel probably could pull this off because he was building on top rather than on the sides of the mountains.  In contrast, I am in the minority here as I was not crazy about Kapalua Plantation precisely because the holes climbing up seemed like a bit of a slog.


Ira

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2017, 04:16:33 PM »

This comes from Leviticus, and is one writer's opinion. I would never discount a course based on the amount of slope the land possesses. I can't abide the dismissal of a course in this manner. We should learn that, if nothing more, from this free exchange of ideas. I hope this don't make Jim Hoak hate me.

"first start with a piece of gently sloping land."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff Taylor

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2017, 04:28:41 PM »
A few from Primland.












Jim Hoak

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2017, 04:40:53 PM »
Ronald, I'd never hate someone with a Demon Deacon by their name!

Carl Nichols

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2017, 04:47:51 PM »

I'm glad you brought up The Beatles Jeff; When I read Tom's initial post, I instantly thought of the Sgt Pepper's album. The album was meant to be played from start to finish and I think the flow is wonderful. Before CDs and MP3s albums were meant to be played from start to finish, not skipped around between songs.



To continue this thought, if you use Spotify, you can shuffle the songs on a particular album or listen to them in their original order.  I think that the whole of Paul's Boutique, played from start to finish, is much greater than the sum of its individual songs.   

Ira Fishman

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2017, 05:40:01 PM »
A few from Primland.














Jeff, thanks for the pictures. I did forget to mention that the green contours are very cool and that although fast, the greens are not too fast for the amount of interior contour.


Ira

Kalen Braley

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2017, 06:04:10 PM »
The cynic in me thinks the everymans version of this would be Torrey Pines South.  Nice views, killer spot, great vibe...but the holes??

Tom_Doak

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2017, 07:06:37 PM »
As a golf course architect, I don't think that subjective-objective 'division' applies for you in the same way, nor do you have the luxury to simply *experience* a golf course; you are almost always also *learning* and often *teaching* as well.

Indeed, your task, it seems to me, is to turn the subjective *into* the objective, so that others later can enjoy what you first appreciated.       



Hi Peter:


Indeed.  That's why I asked the question  :)   Although there are times when I do have the luxury to simply experience a course, it's hard to turn off the analysis function in my brain.


For me, it's not just whether a course has a beautiful site, or the smell of sea air, but what can be done with it.  Most of that comes down to the individual golf holes.  One of the illusions here is that the "flow" is something about how the holes are arranged, but on a normal site, you can't just take the holes you've found and arrange them in any order you want ... if you don't like the flow you've got, you either have to move the starting point, or change some of the holes themselves in order to alter that flow.

Sean_A

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2017, 07:15:39 PM »
This is a strange topic.  To appreciate a course one must appreciate the holes...no?  Its hard to imagine a string of solid holes is somehow far better than a solid course.  On the other hand, like Tom, I do enjoy the unusual holes and their presence will definitely boost my opinion of a course.  North Berwick is perhaps the best example of such. There are too many excellent/unusual holes for the course not be seen as one of the best in GB&I....even with a small handful of holes which are not going to turn anybody's head.  St Enodoc is also a great example.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2017, 07:31:02 PM »
Northwest definitely falls into this category.
It's one of my favorite courses in the world-just simple, compact interesting golf on a small piece of land.with great movement while appearing overall flat.


Dunfanaghy comes to mind, though there are more indivisual stand out holes there, there are also more that don't stand out but connect  the rest. Every time I've played it there's been SOOO much wind that every hole was interesting
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2017, 07:33:29 PM »
Tom - if I can believe what I read in the papers you're doing a pretty good job of balancing golf holes with golf courses :)
We have discussed this in the past, and I know of your focus on cool holes, ie you never want to "settle" for something not top-notch under the guise of better flow.
But what I wanted to suggest is that, from the *golfer's* perspective, the most lasting and deepest impressions are of the course as a whole, including but not limited to the stand-out holes. That only changes when we come on here and for some reason feel compelled to list the "best" holes and the "worst" holes and the "breather" holes etc...as if we had nothing better to do.
But, since most writers and bloggers and critics and raters seem to love doing exactly the same thing, you're probably wise to ignore me and instead to keep focusing on great holes!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 07:41:19 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2017, 08:03:50 PM »


 from the *golfer's* perspective, the most lasting and deepest impressions are of the course as a whole, including but not limited to the stand-out holes. That only changes when we come on here and for some reason feel compelled to list the "best" holes and the "worst" holes and the "breather" holes etc...as if we had nothing better to do.



I agree with you there.  What I'm trying to figure out is which parts of the "whole" are designed, which are just inherent to the site ... and which are a figment of the imagination of the golfer. 


"History" would be one example of a figment of the imagination.  It's only there to the extent that you bring it with you, or a playing partner tells you about it.  I think that should count zero in one's evaluation of a course, but, I know that it is a big influence on many people.


Aesthetics are certainly more than a figment.  To some extent they're inherent to the site, because you can't will them into being if they are not there, but you can certainly get a lot more out of them through clever design, routing, and decisions about the relative elevations of features.  Mike Young does both Pebble Beach and Cypress Point a disservice by saying he remembers their overall beauty and not noticing how it's brought to the fore.  However, he's clearly got it right about golf holes laid out between houses ... that never works, because it's too obvious that the golf hole is not positioned primarily for golf.


A place like Primland [I haven't been] is also a good example where the whole may be greater than the parts:  the setting is unlike any other because of the severity, but the courses manage to pull off using that terrain in an interesting and different manner for golf.  Stone Eagle would be an example of that in my own work.


I don't know where to go with the mention of The Beatles, really.  Of course their greatness revolved around how well they interacted with each other, not just playing but in writing their songs, and there are surely lots of examples like that in golf course architecture.  But I don't see how golf holes can interact in the same way, apart from the general goal of having contrast and variety within 18 holes.


I have often written that I think the highest form of golf architecture is to create a place that's not like anywhere else, which is of course harder and harder to do as more courses are built.  But how you do it is still a mystery, even to me.  I only know that part of the answer is to defy convention and build some things that most other designers would dismiss, and make them work.

Josh Stevens

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2017, 08:21:03 PM »
I was listening to an old Golf Monthly podcast the other day and they were talking about their GB&I top 100

And they made this very point - the heathland courses for example are each individually framed and crafted and so you tend to play 18 individual holes.

The links on the other hand tend to be just played over the land and it is often difficult in hindsight to remember many of the actual holes and so instead, you are playing a round of golf.

Lloyd_Cole

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Re: Appreciating Courses More Than Holes
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2017, 08:21:38 PM »
I think we might be overthinking things, here.
Of course we evaluate the holes on the way to evaluating the course. Some bias their ratings towards great holes, some bias towards a continuity of aesthetic.
That's about it, isn't it?
I was never fond of Pebble Beach, whist acknowledging the great holes...  I prefer Kingston Heath (swayed somewhat by the clubhouse ambience). So I suppose I'm in the second group.

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