[Dave August]

Two examples, same golf course - Desert Forest.


The 15th hole, par 4, has a left mound built into the side of the fairway, which (from the teebox) appears to narrow the fairway, although the fairway opens up beyond the mound, with a "speed slot" that can give 30-40 more yards to a tee shot that looks as if it will be off the fairway.


The next hole is a par 5 with a diagonal ridge traversing the fairway at the 3w landing area, and a tree further down the fairway (about 160 yds from the green).  A well struck driver has a pretty long way to travel down the left fairway (245 carry from the members tees) to a landing area that kicks the ball left and off the grass. A well struck driver down the right (230 carry) can result in either a) a perfect tee shot, right center of the fairway, testing the meddle of the golfer to go for the green in two; or b) a shot that, if there is any right movement, can kick off the fairway.


Two consecutive tee shots that are serious risk/reward holes, late in the round. 


Not a fairway bunker on either hole. But two tee shots that will really test strategy and ball striking ability.

[Jon Cavalier]

How about a hogsback like at OM

Hog's back, baby:








Or what about a Bottle-type hole, like Hanse's 9th at French Creek:

(granted, this hole is heavily bunkered, but the tee should work work just as well without them, I think)

[Ian Andrew]

A mild diagonal offset in the fairway lines, when everything else points you straight. It's remarkably unnerving, because you're just not sure how to adjust to the slight angle, particularly when there are no bunkers present to bring things back to obvious.


A diagonal crown through the landing leaves no obvious play
5th at Crystal is strongest example, but I always liked the 7th at Riviera which is far more subtle
It's not an obvious inclusion in a routing


Cross-fall like the 15th at Garden City, looks simple, plays much harder

[Matthew Petersen]

Two examples, same golf course - Desert Forest.


The 15th hole, par 4, has a left mound built into the side of the fairway, which (from the teebox) appears to narrow the fairway, although the fairway opens up beyond the mound, with a "speed slot" that can give 30-40 more yards to a tee shot that looks as if it will be off the fairway.


The next hole is a par 5 with a diagonal ridge traversing the fairway at the 3w landing area, and a tree further down the fairway (about 160 yds from the green).  A well struck driver has a pretty long way to travel down the left fairway (245 carry from the members tees) to a landing area that kicks the ball left and off the grass. A well struck driver down the right (230 carry) can result in either a) a perfect tee shot, right center of the fairway, testing the meddle of the golfer to go for the green in two; or b) a shot that, if there is any right movement, can kick off the fairway.


Two consecutive tee shots that are serious risk/reward holes, late in the round. 


Not a fairway bunker on either hole. But two tee shots that will really test strategy and ball striking ability.

And those follow the 14th, which is no slouch in terms of driving options!

[Kalen Braley]

I was thinking Pasa 16 on the hogsback.  Gawd I never tire looking at this hole or remembering playing it...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Admittedly over my skis compared to the knowledge here, but I would put forth:


- an uphill blind tee shot. Not to be overused, but perhaps for one hole..?


- or, a downhill blind tee shot like the 17th at RDGC


Subtle? Perhaps not.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I love speed slots for tee shots, one of the best examples is the hill you can catch on the left side of the fairway on 16 at Sand Hills. 
...
The downside to these features is that they are not easily decipherable in one round of golf and do not really come out in photographs.  They must be learned over multiple encounters.

I forgot about speed slots.  I've only rarely seen it, but I love when the short hitter gets a speed slot that enables him to close the gap on the long hitter, instead of the long hitter getting to press his advantage even further.  There are a couple at Royal Portrush ... I'm not sure how the hole numbers have changed.  I tried to do the same on the 7th hole at Rock Creek.


P.S.  That these things must be learned over time is NOT a downside.

The awesome 7th at Mimosa Hills!
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35972.msg729862.html#msg729862

There's a super-cool thing relevant to this thread going on with the tee shot on the 8th at Kinloch but it's something best learned on one's own, over time.

[Tom_Doak]

I played The Loop today, and my favorite tee shot there is the 8th hole of the Red course [though we played Black today].  The fairway angles left off a slope, and if you're going to hit driver, you have to either hit a bit of a draw or hang the tee shot out into space on the left side.


There are lots of older courses with tee shots like that, because they've grown to be that way, but you almost never see it on a new course because we all unconsciously try to put our landing areas on flat spots, rather than right in the middle of a slope.  But I sort of stumbled into it on The Loop because we couldn't always put the tees where we wanted for play in one direction or the other -- and I like it.  I hope I can build a hole like it now and again deliberately. 

[Blake Conant]

A tee offset from the hole is a nice change of pace.  Aligning the tee on one side of the fairway rather than on the centerline creates strategy. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Illogical bunkering which creates a false line of charm. Basically defending an area that doesn't need to be defended.


I found the opposite of this at Seattle CC. Knew nothing specific about the 1st hole, dogleg right but a sand trap was on the outside corner. My tee shot finished a few yards away and was in perfect position to approach the green.

[Chris Buie]

[Mike_Trenham]

TPC Sawgrass, for me the side of the fairway that fit my eye was not where I wanted to be. 

[Duncan Cheslett]

In my life I've never heard of or read about an architect who deliberately angled a tee to deceive the golfer.  There are lots of them about, but all are either a) built on a severe side slope where it's hard to align to the fairway, or b) a construction or maintenance mistake.  Mowing lines do change over time, just through carelessness.

Really?


For the last 100 years or so, the tee box on the long 7th at Reddish Vale has pointed towards the bunkers 200 yards out, rather than a few degrees left, down the middle of the fairway. Members are not fazed by it, but it is always amusing to see guests and visitors deceived into trouble. Particularly if there is money at stake!


There is no reason to suspect that this is not an original feature.

[Thomas Dai]

Are we moving away from the word 'subtle' in the subject post?
atb

[Sean_A]

Are we moving away from the word 'subtle' in the subject post?
atb

Si


Ciao

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

I like holes that offer choices...and choices that may not be self-evident first time around.  The "obvious" play, based on Strategic Design 101, is not necessarily the best play.  The architect invites an impulsive reading of the hole, only to teach the player a lesson in considering alternatives.  I will give two examples from the Pacific Northwest, my home region.  The 6th hole on Pronghorn Fazio is a 410 yd dogleg left around a bunker.  Bunker is at an angle to the tee shot with the nearest corner of the bunker about 240 yds from the tee.  A creek runs up left side of fairway until it passes the bunker where it continues through the fairway, ultimately hugging the right side of the green.  When you first see the hole, you think the ideal play is over the corner of the bunker, leaving about 120 yds to the green.  Not bad at all...but the green is triangular, with the narrow portion at the front.  Having hit the "ideal" tee shot described above, the approach to a front flag is challenging, even if only 120 yds.  The green is quite narrow from that angle, with creek in front and bunker behind...and play out of bunker is steeply downhill.  The alternative tee shot is to hit a hybrid about 230 yds short of the bunker, essentially between the bunker and the creek.  From there the shot to the green is about 150 yds, but the angle for the approach is much better.  So what seems to be the obvious strategy...reward long, accurate shot over bunker...is not necessarily the best play.  An accurate, shorter layup can work even better.  A similar setup exists on 497 yd, par 4 5th at Gamble Sands.  The tee shot plays up over hill and diagonal bunker, running up right side.  Playing it for the first time, you think you will be rewarded for biting off as much of the diagonal bunker as you can.  And, in fact, a well-struck drive on that line hits a downward slope, easily running out to about the 300 yd mark.  But you end up having an almost 200 yd shot to the green from a sloping lie...and it is blind.  The alternative play off the tee is to play over the nearer end of the diagonal bunker, up the left side of the fairway.  A bunker lurks there, but there is a speed slot if you avoid the bunker...and a flatter lie and better angle for your approach.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I was about to offer blindness, or semi blindness in the next shot but you beat me to it. I recall I hole at Long Cove where the green is protected by a large dune, and you need to hug the right to see around it...

Tom -
At The Mines, there is a ridge/rise running across the fairway from left to right, at an angle: the carry over the left side of the ridge is shorter, the carry over the other side (the preferred line) gets progressively longer the further right you go.       

One of my favorites is the ridge on the tee shot is the 4th hole at Bandon Trails.  It's a big ridge, and not very subtle ... if you try to bite off too much, you've got a blind second shot, and if you don't hit a fade to the reverse-camber side, your drive tends to kick straight left.  It's almost the opposite of a speed slot, really.

[Don Jordan]

It is interesting that our course that underwent a major redesign had two reverse camber tee shots greatly remodelled. One I agreed with as it was a long shot to get to the corner of a slight dogleg and everything kicked into the trees unless you could hit a 230m hard draw. The other was a fade shot but on a much shorter hole and was changed to a semi split fairway with the high side the same level as the green and the other low so the green was above eye level.

I quite like the drop off at the end of the fairway. The 8th at Pebble is obviously not subtle but I do like the 9th at Cape Kidnappers and the 4th at The Lakes in Sydney and 11th at Royal Adelaide where a waste area or rough limits the length you can hit.

I might be in the minority with this one but a big tree on the inside corner of a tree lined dogleg that creates a sort box you have to hit into is interesting as it is not often that you are asked to hit a specific distance front and back.

Put me down as another one that hates tees that point you at the trees...

[Don Mahaffey]

I like the unpredictability of a wavy irregular surface. I know that isn't thought to be the best approach because there should be some logical reason for each contour, but a firm sloped green that favors an approach from a certain side of the fwy matched up with an uneven lie, even when you hit the proper side, will test their game and their patience.   

[Kyle Henderson]

It's not subtle, but the tee shot on #18 had two (now just one) trees in the right center of the fairway to pester those playing away from the cliff.


I love the 10th tee shot at Ballyneal with the "bowl of despair" on the left, especially because of the counterpoint offered by the 16th and its "bowl of achievement."

[Bill_McBride]

4.  Forward camber?  A tilted fairway, whether "reverse" or not, encourages the player to play away from the intended target.

Do you mean they're playing away from the intended target to allow for a fade or draw on the approach, because of the sidehill lie?  Or do you just mean playing toward the high side of a fairway so the ball will come back down to the middle?


I like the reverse camber even better because it allows the player a chance to counteract the slope with the shape of the tee shot.  If you're playing up into the bank, trajectory has less effect.

I like the reverse camber shot better, too.  But the opening post asked for ways the shots can be interesting without bunkers.  I was thinking about the tee shot, playing to the high side, but you're right that it can have other consequences.  I don't think you want to have many holes with a big banking side slope.

Reverse camber can be brutal, for example the 3rd at the Lakeside Course at Olympic.  If you hit one down the center with no right to left spin, your second shot up the hill feels like it's 400 yards!  17 is the same way, maybe not as dastardly.

[Mike_Clayton]

Don,


I'm assuming you are talking about Royal Canberra. 12 was an awful tee shot (think 14 at Augusta with trees coming out 20 yards onto the fairway) and needed some alteration. 5 was always a poor hole in our view - the tee shot was shortish and blind to a reverse camber fairway with mounds and rough at the far end of it but well within reach. Moving the tee made it better because you have to fade the tee shot or hug the trees on the right to keep it up on the high fairway from where the shot is easier than from the bottom level. And it should be looked at as a part of the three hole alteration to 4,5 and 6. 6 is better for taking the tee back to the original position and 4 is a pretty decent hole too IMO.

[Jeff_Brauer]

May have been mentioned, but a tree overhanging part way at 320-350 yards off the tee.  If you get indifferent with your tee shot and get partially behind the tree, you have to deal with it, even if there are no fairway hazards.


I recall a discussion on these years ago, where some club had decided to change all fairway behind such a tree to rough, since you "should have an open shot from the fairway".  Tom D remarked that it would be even a harder shot to enforce that idea.

[Don Jordan]

Don,


I'm assuming you are talking about Royal Canberra. 12 was an awful tee shot (think 14 at Augusta with trees coming out 20 yards onto the fairway) and needed some alteration. 5 was always a poor hole in our view - the tee shot was shortish and blind to a reverse camber fairway with mounds and rough at the far end of it but well within reach. Moving the tee made it better because you have to fade the tee shot or hug the trees on the right to keep it up on the high fairway from where the shot is easier than from the bottom level. And it should be looked at as a part of the three hole alteration to 4,5 and 6. 6 is better for taking the tee back to the original position and 4 is a pretty decent hole too IMO.

Mike - correct

12 definitely needed some work and I like the changes, the dynamics of the back nine have changed a little now as 12 for me plays the easiest where as before it was the equal of 14 and 16 in difficulty but it balances well.

5 is a tricky one for me. I have played the front 9 more than 100 times now and find 4,5,6 is disappointing compared to what it was. I understand it is returning to the original design and 5 is a better hole now although I didn't think the camber was such an issue on that hole as it is pretty short compared to 12 (wedge v 6 iron), agree that the mounds and fairway did need widening though.

I find 4 is a strange one and would like to understand it better. The effective width of the fairway is very narrow given trees on both sides and I understand that these couldn't be removed. This worked well as a par 5 as it took 2 good shots to set up a pitch or maybe on a good day get on in 2. Now with the false front it is extremely difficult (even as someone playing off 1) to hit as most are hitting long irons from a downhill lie to a green that is at level if not a bit higher. The bunkers left catch everything left of centre and anything short wont get up and anything on the front feeds off the green to the same spot on the right. I still struggle with the playability of the second shot given the bunker closer to the green but just try and get up and down every week.

The 4th and 6th were 2 of my favourite holes previously and now are 2 of my least favourite. 6 is good for what it is but it is really just drive, lay up wedge every week, the bunker on the left of the green works really well for catching over zealous big hitters though. Apart from that love the changes and think the course is a much more balanced test of the game.

[Mike_Clayton]

Don,


I'd played the original 6th and found when they moved the tee forward it always seemed like you were hitting through the corner and onto the downslope to be then confronted by a long iron into a small green - all as a par 4.
I agree 4 would be improved by tree removal especially on the left.It's a pity but I still like it more than the old hole. One of the issues was those three greens - 4,5 and 6 - were always distinguishable from the original greens.

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