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Tim Gallant

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Lido Contest 2017
« on: May 17, 2017, 03:42:55 PM »
Congratulations to Bryan Orellana!


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/2017-lido-contest-winner?mbid=Social_Twitter_GolfWorld


What does everyone think of the winning hole? I really like it overall and would love to play it.


Only comment would be i'm not sure about the fairway bunker on the left. To me, playing short would leave most too far out to reach in two, so the angle doesn't then matter. Also, if you just about carry the bunker, you are on a hill, so unpredictable lie/stance. Would it have been better to keep that side of the fairway clear of a bunker, and let those who see the bunkers on the outside of the leg play away, only to find they can't reach, and now have the worse angle for their layup?
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George Pazin

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2017, 04:04:39 PM »
Best contest hole I've seen in years. Maybe ever.


Gotta think a bit more about Tim's one criticism, but as a quick impression, I like the fairway bunker on the left.


Though it's appearance does bring to mind the upholstered bunkers at Berkshire Blue...


Sorry, reaching waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back for that one. :)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 04:17:17 PM by George Pazin »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark McKeever

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 04:50:08 PM »
What was the design criteria?
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George Pazin

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2017, 06:36:29 PM »
It's been a long while since I entered a Lido competition, but I believe it's simply, design your ideal par 5.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2017, 06:58:03 PM »
Mark, the entry criteria are contained in the link below -


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/2017-lido-prize-competition-rules
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Garland Bayley

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2017, 07:11:52 PM »
Double hazards of bunkers backed by gorse. Give me a break. Should not have made the final cut.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 07:20:27 PM »
I love Cameron's runner up design.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 08:05:13 PM »
Cameron has serious talent, both as an artist and a designer of golf holes. He has won this twice, once as a young boy. Faldo said to him at that time - "Come see me in ten years". Nick could do worse than hire him today!
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Brett Wiesley

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2017, 02:37:12 PM »
It seemed to have a little flavor of #5 at Bethpage Black and #15 at Pine Valley.
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2017, 03:51:03 PM »
Just an observation, but the three leading entries each have either 8 or 9 sand bunkers on their designed hole.
Atb




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Garland Bayley

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2017, 04:54:51 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Dai on May 18, 2017, 03:51:03 PM
Just an observation, but the three leading entries each have either 8 or 9 sand bunkers on their designed hole.
Atb

Just an observation, but these bunkers have little to do with the average golfer who cannot place his tee shot in the range of the first set of bunkers, his second shot in the range of the second set of bunkers, and likely his approach shot in the range of the third set of bunkers. To a certain extent we are seeing a formulaic design style being rewarded.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2017, 10:39:11 PM »



"On many courses there are far too many bunkers. The sides of the fairways are riddled with them, and many of these courses would be equally interesting if half of the bunkers were turfed over making them into grassy hollows".


Alister MacKenzie, The Spirit of St Andrews
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2017, 04:12:01 AM »
Quote from: Matthew Mollica on May 18, 2017, 10:39:11 PM
"On many courses there are far too many bunkers. The sides of the fairways are riddled with them, and many of these courses would be equally interesting if half of the bunkers were turfed over making them into grassy hollows".
Alister MacKenzie, The Spirit of St Andrews


For the other side of the coin see - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,846.0.html
As with many things I guess, moderation from both perspectives rather than over use.
atb
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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2017, 07:52:23 AM »
Thanks Thomas - good old thread.


It is interesting with MacKenzie isn't it. For every mention of economy of construction in his texts, and for every example of his good holes sparingly bunkered, we play his holes like Kingston Heath 15, Royal Melbourne West 5 and 18, and Cypress Point Club 5 and other such gems where sand abounds.
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2017, 08:03:12 AM »
It would be interesting to add up the number of bunkers per course as designed/built on various Mackenzie courses....and then compare the figures to the number of bunkers currently in place.
I also wonder if a pattern of bunker usage over the period of his design work would emerge or if there'd be some sort of site specific pattern?
Atb
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Ben Malach

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2017, 04:47:48 PM »
Thomas:


The reason the Lido rewards holes with lots of bunkers is due to the simple fact that it is an art contest first and a design contest second.


Bunkers render well in plan view where as hillocks and dells do not. Therefore those seeking to win should add bunkers to define the strategy of the hole rather than defining play through use of landforms that do not read impressively from plan. 
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Lido Contest 2017
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2017, 04:59:28 PM »
Quote from: Ben Malach on May 19, 2017, 04:47:48 PM
...
The reason the Lido rewards holes with lots of bunkers is due to the simple fact that it is an art contest first and a design contest second.
...

That has been my impression. I think they would show better golf holes if they took the artistically challenged, but more interesting holes and had a pro redraw them for presentation as a winner.

One year we saw a much larger selection of entries and the top 3 were the better drawn entries, but not the better golf holes.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

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Re: Lido Contest 2017 New
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2017, 06:54:28 PM »
Since the "archie" is presumably given free reign as to no previous hole, I would have thought creating more thoughtful angles by spreading out the tees would have been a good idea. 

I don't care for the second design at all, the 175 yardage spread in tees is not something I want to see promoted or built.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 03:23:47 AM by Sean_A »
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