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T_MacWood

Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« on: October 06, 2003, 06:30:56 AM »
HHW is often compared to Bernard Darwin. IMO Darwin was positive influence on golf architecture as a critic--criticallly reviewing new designs, redesigns, discussing strategy as it pertains to architecture, discussing features he liked and didn't like, discussing trends he liked and didn't like, promoting preservation, profling architects and their theories, etc.

Did HHW have a similar effect? And was it a postive effect?

Brad Klein

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2003, 07:29:11 AM »
HWW was my mentor and was very generous with his time, both in corresponding and in allowing me to walk with him during majors. He was a gentleman, very gracious, perhaps to one fault, namely that there was nothing he didn't like in golf -or at least he was too much of the gracious man ever to criticize anything in print. In this sense he differed from Bernard Darwin.

HWW had his views, but he kept them to himself. He was worlds apart from his fellow writers at SI, where Herb was among the original staffers.

What people don't realize about him is that he was at least as important to tennis writing as he was to golf. Also, he was a brilliant essayist/portratist. His late-1950s essay on spending a few days with Yogi Berra is priceless. My favorite piece he ever did was a 70-page "New Yorker" history of field goal kicking that focused on Jim Bakken's technique.

HWW's 1951 portrait of Robert Trent Jones around the time of that year's U.S. open was the first national profile of a golf course architect and literally created RTJ's reputation. His essay, "North to the Links of Dornoch" single-handidly put that course on the map. As I recall, he made that trip to Scotland with Pete and Alice Dye and the 1963 Walker Cup team, including captain Richard Tufts. His two-art series on golf course architecture in Golf Digest (Oct.-Nov. 1966) was surely the most influential piece of writing ever on the craft.  
 
A few other noteworthy things on HWW. He was a fine golfer, good enough to reach several matches deep into an early 1950s British Amateur. Besides being a founding staff member of SI, 1954-1961, he was the original writer of Shell's Wonderful World of Golf.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 07:33:41 AM by Brad Klein »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2003, 07:57:42 AM »
I felt one of the highlights of golf writing were Wind's recap of each major in the New Yorker.  It was a blend of history and reporting.  I experienced the highest feelings of anticipation awaiting my issue after a major. In general, I can not imagine him being anything but a positive influence on the game.  However, I have not gone back and reread his articles in quite some time, many I kept, plus his book Following Through??  I am certain some in this heralded group could find something to claw and chew on that he wrote, but they could never besmirch this wonderful writer.

T_MacWood

Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2003, 08:29:34 AM »
Brad
Do you believe in hindsight HWW's article promoting RTJ and his total overhaul of Oakland Hills was a positive development?

How did his 1966 essay influence architecture?

ChipOat

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2003, 09:10:14 AM »
Have kept most everything HWW wrote on golf architecture including a couple of SI "tutorials" on the subject.

As Brad says, Herb was much more an elegant reporter than a critic.  I knew him well in NYC from 1974 until he moved to Massachusetts about 10 years ago.  Even in private conversations over a drink, it was difficult for him to be critical of many people in golf whose personalities were, by all accounts, deserving of serious brickbats.  As a result, by the way, he never had a problem getting honest opinions - people in sports trusted him.  He once remarked to me that he didn't understand how Jim Murray ever got anyone to talk to him although he enjoyed reading Murray's work.  Herb didn't really do interviews or "get stories" anyway, but he did need to know what was really going on in order to craft the kind of "high level" features that were his specialty.

At any rate, many catalysts for change are vocal critics that are saying the right things and won't go away in the face of inertia.  As this wasn't Herb's style, I don't believe he had much direct influence on golf architecture - he wrote eloquently on what WAS, not what ought to be.

One could argue that Herb had a large INdirect effect on golf architecture given the influence that Dornoch had on Dye, Crenshaw et al after Herb made the world aware of RDGC.

Although the Dye's may well have been in Dornoch the same time as Herb, he made that trip in the company of Sam McKinlay, a fine golfer and longtime writer for the major paper in Glasgow.  The first time I read "North to the Links of Dornoch", I knew I had to get there someday.

Herb was made an honorary member of RDGC due to the recognition the course began to receive from others as a result of his original piece in The New Yorker.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 09:11:24 AM by chipoat »

David_Tepper

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2003, 09:27:00 AM »
In addition to putting Dornoch on the map as a golf destination, HWW's 1971 New Yorker piece on Ballybunion and the other half-dozen top golf courses in Ireland really helped get the ball rolling in the same way for the Emerald Isle. Forget Bill Clinton, Ballybunion and the Irish Tourist Board  should have a statue of HWW there!

Two of my favorite HWW pieces were his description of watching Seve Ballesteros hitting balls on the practice range at the Masters and a terrific profile of Lee Trevino (1980).

Brad Klein - Have you been to the Highlands yet?

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2003, 11:19:52 AM »
In an earlier thread, I mentioned that I admired his New Yorker writing so much that I called him out of the blue and congratulated him on one particular piece. He invited me to visit him in his office in New York. His office, if you could call it that, was not much bigger than the Starter's shack at St. Andrews. I was amazed, here was a writer whose prose was up there with some of the best essayists ever published and was treated thus.

We chatted for thirty or forty minutes on all aspects of the game, I learned much. The last time I saw him was at Augusta in 1986 on the Saturday following Nick Price on the way to his 63. He was rather prescient in saying that record scores there, would result in botched up changes to the course, to its detriment.

When I think of the word gentleman, I think of HWW.

Brad Klein

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2003, 11:26:18 AM »
Dave Tepper, I'm not sure what you mean. I've been to Scotland 20 times, most recently two weeks ago where we spent 9 days in Dornoch (where I'm a member) and surrounds.

I've played Cape Breton Highland Links in Nova Scotia. I'm not sure what other Highlands you could be asking about.

In 1986, HWW told me he fretted over the shorter and shorter nature of golf articles in magazines and said that "It takes me 1,000 words just to clear my throat."

Willie_Dow

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2003, 11:50:23 AM »
An example of his thinking might be seen in his comments via the New Yorker "Sporting Scene" re Augusta National and the Masters 5/28/84.

"However,if there was any one overriding goal that Jones and MacKenzie were arriving to achieve, it was to come up with a course that would be eminently playable from the regular tees for the medium- and high-handicap golfer while simultaneously presenting a stiff examination from the back tee for the low handicap or scratch golfer.  They were successful in bringing this off because they both staunchly believed that strategic design was much superior to penal design, which for years had dominated golf-course architecture in America.  On a course of penal design, the golfer who hits a shot that strays the slightest bit from the narrow path from the tee to the green is punished for it drastically.  His ball often ends up in the high rough but even more often in a sand bunker."

David_Tepper

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2003, 12:09:35 PM »
Brad Klein-

I was asking about your recent trip to Dornoch and surrounds. Did you get to Fortrose & Rosemarkie or Boat of Garten?

DT

Brad Klein

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2003, 12:38:00 PM »
Got back last week and we played Fortrose & Rosemarkie - an amazing place, Braid routed 18 holes on a peninsula jutting out in the firth just opposite the Inverness Airport.
 

David_Tepper

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2003, 12:44:55 PM »
Brad Klein-

Fortrose & Rosemarkie is quite a place. Glad you enjoyed it. I don't know if you noticed the house immediately to the right of both the 5th(?) green (the short par 3) and the 6th tee. It was recently up for sale and I was sorely tempted to make an offer that could not be refused. However, common sense prevailed.

DT

Bill_McBride

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2003, 12:52:18 PM »
What a pleasant coincidence to write a post about Herbert Warren Wind as a favorite writer (in the "Architecture Books" thread) and then see this thread at the same time!  Best golf writing ever IMHO.

With regard to his spartan office at the New Yorker, a couple of years ago I read a book about one writer's thirty year career there, titled I think, "Here at the New Yorker," and apparently abuse from the managing editor, Mr. Ross, was par for the course, including humble office accommodations!

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2003, 02:11:51 PM »
HWW New Yorker articles kept the magazine as apart of my traveling library. I love his books, articles and essays. The world needs more like him with his deep knowledge base and compasion for people. The size of a mans office has little to do with the size of his brain or his heart for that matter.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2003, 03:06:08 PM »
"The size of a mans office has little to do with the size of his brain or his heart for that matter."

John Bernhardt,

Thank you for pointing that out to me.....now go and run five laps for being snooty. The mention of the size of his office was as an aside, purely filler. As I've said to you before, when displeased, "Look around, you may not tread this way again."  ;D

T_MacWood

Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2003, 05:34:51 PM »
Conceding HHW’s obvious contributions to the game as a fine writer, did he drop the ball regarding golf architecture?

Based on his books and essays I get the impression Wind had a real interest in the subject--a thorough understanding of the history of golf architecture, of the great architects, of their best designs and of their theories. He was an admirer of MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Macdonald, Thompson, and others.

But when it came to contemporary design he remained pretty quiet--other than championing RTJ. Writing that favorable profile in the New Yorker, complementing his redesign work at Oakland Hills, Baltusrol, Winged Foot and ANGC (RTJ also contributed a chapter on gca in Wind’s first book and was praised in Wind’s second book). He, along with Bobby Jones, basically made Jones the huge name he became, which allowed him to dominate and shape modern golf architecture.  

Although he wasn’t a critic in the 50’s and 60’s, by the mid-70's, it appears to me, HWW was totally disgusted with modern golf architecture, and wrote of his disgust in several essays, including a speech to the ASGCA.

Was he indirectly responsible for golf architecture’s sorry state…did he feel a certain responsibility? And did his criticism in the mid-70’s have any effect on golf architecture?

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2003, 05:37:53 PM »
Bob. laps done Sir. lol I cannot believe I fired a bullit the day before you do a favor for friends of mine. However,there were a few more notes of his lack of accomodations at the New Yorker by our fellow posters. It was fun to point out the obvious, especially being a man in a modest office in Lafayette, La. It may be A space here but it is C in the big city. lol

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2003, 06:15:51 PM »
I think one of the best things about Wind's reporting on the major championships for The New Yorker was the fact that he recognized and wrote about how the golf course was such an intregal part of the championship.  It wasn't just the venue, in Wind's writing the course was another character in the drama.  

As for his small office at The New Yorker, he was in good company.  Joseph Mitchell, James Thurber, EB White, Roger Angell, Pauline Kael and many others there wrote some of the great magazine pieces in history from offices no bigger than walk-in closets.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2003, 10:11:50 PM »
Herb Wind's pieces about golf courses were one ofthe things that got me interested in it as a career.  He was also kind enough to write me a reference letter for my scholarship from Cornell.  So, I'd say he had a very positive effect on at least one career in design.

T_MacWood

Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2003, 06:08:03 AM »
I'm sure HHW inspired a lot of people--traveling golfers, golf writers, a high percentage of our current golf architects. The question is did he also inspire golf architecture in the 50's, 60's and 70's?

ed_getka

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Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2003, 05:10:16 PM »
Herb may or may not have had a positive influence on GCA, but in our many conversations together he has long held the view that equipment was/is the issue that is detrimental to the future of golf. The USGA is not on his X-mas card mailing list ;).
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

T_MacWood

Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2003, 06:10:29 AM »
As early as 1948 in The Story of American Golf he was voicing his concern with equipment. Evidently Peachtree from the tips was 7400 yards--which alarmed him. He was led to believe (by the USGA I assume) that was going to be the ceiling, that equipment would be held in check. But he warned if it wasn't held in check their would be negative consequences. 7400 yards, it makes you wonder where RTJ and Bobby Jones' heads were in the 40's.

I also get the impression--from following his writing--that Wind eventually became disenchanted with RTJ's architecture (I believe the two were friends), preferring Dick Wilson's work. Does anyone know Wind's opinions on RTJ and Wilson?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2003, 06:13:12 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2003, 09:12:28 AM »
Wow, some of these posts personally remembering Herbert Warren Wind are some of the best posts I've seen on here--particularly Brad Klein, Bob Huntley and most particularly Chip Oat.

Tom MacWood is asking what Wind's influence was on architecture directly, though, it seems to me. Tom seems to imply that Bernard Darwin had more of a direct influence on architecture in an earlier era than Wind might have had a few decades later. Is that true? Even if Darwin did write about architecture far more specifically than Wind did, can it be said, proven and concluded that Darwin had some direct influence on the architecture and architects of his time and more so than Wind? If he did I've never been very aware of that. He certainly did write about it and very well  but does that mean he had a very real influence on it?

How much more of an influence on architecture did people such as Macdonald have? People such as Crump, Wilson, Ross, and those that worked at it and wrote about it such as MacKenzie, Flynn, Thomas, Hunter, Behr, and others such as Colt or Alison? And in Wind's era such people as RTJ, Wilson, Fazios, Rees, Dye, and those that wrote such as Whitten, Cornish?

It looks like Wind may have warned about the negative effects of future distance but just somewhat. Did anyone pay attention to that and take heed and do anything about it architecturally in a positive sense to many of those old classic courses and what was getting built in the so-called "Modern Age?"  Not that I can see!

Throughout most of the so-called "Modern Age" I can't really see that anyone did much about this problem we seem to fixate on now. What went on in the "Modern Age" of golf architecture (perhaps the 1950s to the 1990s) was an age of almost universal change and also the acceptance of that universal change! It doesn't look to me like anyone saw a problem during that era and Wind was one of the best chroniclers of that era and that change. Did he personally or even professionally agree with it all? From what some have said on here and even reported about what he said personally and wrote it wouldn't seem exactly so!

It's probably only up to us now to look back on those two eras and evaluate it in the light of all that went on during the evolution of it all and of a somewhat new and different era that seems upon us now in architecture. Why did apparently new eras begin to emerge and happen? Why did the so-called "Modern Age" of architecture start to cycle to somewhat of an end and usher in the beginning of what may be now called the beginnings of somewhat of a "Renaissance Era"?

For that I'd look to people such as Dye, Doak, and the others that are doing those types of renaissance work. And for writers that have influenced that perhaps those such as Whitten, Doak, Klein, Shackelford, Wexler, Bahto et al!

Why did such as RTJ veer from some of the architectural principles of the earlier era and go to more size, larger scale, more earth movement, more irrigation and more distance? And why did that cycle down to where we are now which seems to be a time of renewed concern about what happened in the last fifty years?

If you ask me that's just the way of the World--that's just the way it was meant to be in golf and architecture for a whole variety of reasons. I don't think there was anyone out there in the beginning of the "Modern Age" of golf architecture screaming bloody murder and warning anyone that they were destroying or corrupting things.

My own Dad who knew every bit as much or more about golf and probably architecture as I do was one of those who was recommending those changes of the "Modern Age". I'm a bit haunted by that but basically I have little doubt that if I lived in his era I would've done the same things as he did. And I have less doubt that if he lived in my era he'd be doing AND saying the same things as I am now.

Wind was just a very good chronicler of his era as Darwin was of his!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2003, 10:08:01 AM »
HWW was so careful not to offend or give voice to his deeper concerns in print. He was the ultimate gentleman. One of the great tours ever came in 1980, I believe, when HWW and Crenshaw accompanied a group of travelers to the better Scottish golf courses. Crenshaw outdid himself in being nice and kind, to the point where he was apparently serving as valet to some of the people. I'm told they had a spectacular time, but Herb said that he almost felt bad for Ben.

As for his views on RTJ, HWW had concerns about business and commercialization. At the 1988 U.S. Open at The Country Club, where Rees Jones enjoyed his public "coming out" party as a nationally respected architect and restorationist, Herb took Rees aside and told him "I hope you don't make your father's mistake and take on too many projects."
« Last Edit: October 08, 2003, 10:08:56 AM by Brad Klein »

T_MacWood

Re:Herbert Warren Wind's effect
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2003, 12:40:12 PM »
TE
Have you read many of Wind's articles on golf architecture? My favorite is his 1966 piece...he had a remarkable understanding of golf architecture history.

IMO the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's were not an age of universal change. In the mid-70's--when HWW became a vocal critic--that was one of his major criticisms, golf courses were becoming predicatable: 7000 yards, real estate driven, maintenace friendly, unimaginative, large greens, large tees, bulldozed-to-death "rushed mechanical mediocraty". Mostly because one man was dominating--RTJ--a career that HWW had a major influnce in creating.

With all due respect to Wind, Darwin wrote more essays in any given year than Wind wrote in his entire career at the New Yorker. And Darwin's career strectched from 1907 to the 1950's. No one that I am aware of has written more on the subject of golf architecture than Darwin...including contributing to at least have a dozen books covering the subject. His articles were read in the UK and America. When Macdonald wanted to create the Lido contest he went to his friends Darwin and Hutchinson (Macdonald, Darwin and Fowler choosing the winner MacKenzie).

Not only was Darwin a prolific writer on the subject, he was also an outspoken critic. On a tour of Chicago he criticized Onwentsia in print, they immediately hired Willie Watson to revise the course. He criticzed GCGC, which inpsired Travis to write a thoughful but also emotional response. His opinion was respected on both sides of the Atlantic.

The timing of his career is also major factor in considering his influence. Modern golf architecture began in London as his writing career was taking off. His friends and acquaintances included Low, Hutchinson, Colt, Fowler, MacKenzie, Alison, Simpson, Macdonald, Braid, Taylor, Hawtree, Campbell, Hutchison, Travis and Jones. It was an era of give and take, when ideas were shared and debated. I don't think you can say that about the 50's, 60's and 70's.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2003, 04:08:10 PM by Tom MacWood »

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