Leatherstocking 18th hole...overrated?

[Frank M]

I finally had a chance to play Leatherstocking, but am I the only one who feels it is overrated? A flat fairway, pretty wide playing corridor, an island tee...I'll give it a good green. Maybe it's just me, but other than its setting, I felt 18 was a bit of a let down and uninteresting for a par-5, especially with what there is before it. Am I crazy?

[Tom_Doak]

Frank:


It's a better setting than it is a golf hole.


But, then, let me ask you:  in what ways is the 18th at Pebble Beach a superior golf hole?

[Rob Marshall]

I grew up in upstate NY and it was always talked about as an iconic hole. I think the "island" tee box is what sets it somewhat apart. I played it in the NYS Mid Am. Its a challenging tee shot. How much can you cut off and get home in two? If you play it too safe you go thru the fairway into a grouping of trees. From your picture it looks like those trees may have been removed. May not be a great hole but it's a good hole.


I always felt that it was a nice course squeezed into a piece of property that was too small for it. Short par three looking down into a parking lot. Par 5 with a swale in front of the green that would propel a well struck second shot over the green with out of bounds only a few paces from the fringe. Claustrophobic in some parts of the course.

[Jon Cavalier]

I played Leatherstocking following several days of torrential rain, and there was substantial flooding in the area (including parts of the course). As a result, the tee shot on 18 was ... daunting.








Still can't believe the tee was open that day.

[Bill Vogeney]

It is a wonderful hole. Have to pick the right line off the tee-you can't automatically bail right because you can easily hit the ball through the fairway and into the little ditch. Which is exactly what I did-did not bail, just played too conservative a line.

[Anthony Gholz]

What a wonderful course!  The reverse Redan green was an eye opener.  Of course it's claustrophobic in some places.  It's an early golden age course.  And of course the 18th wasn't the 18th originally.  Check out the private clubhouse in the middle of the course on the lake that was the original beginning 1st and 18th.  That 18th would have been a blind punch bowl green with the lake as backdrop.  I like that hole as well.


So yes you are crazy!
 (or at least not as happy as you should be for the opportunity to play a course that's great fun)


Can't wait to get back

[Frank M]

Tom: I would agree on your point and re:18 at Pebble, I think it at least has a little more going on.

Jon: I was at Leatherstocking this past week and was wondering if I'd find a similar water situation on the 18th tee. There has been so much rain in the region, but all was good.

Anthony: You are talking about the 15th? It would have been a better finishing hole than 18. Also, I'm very happy to have had the chance to play the course. I think it's absolutely great fun, I just think the finish is...well you know.

[Ronald Montesano]

I suspect it be the only "tee in the middle of a lake that is built on automobiles stacked on each other from the bottom of the lake" that you will ever play.


16-18 are quite different from the remainder of the course. After not seeing anything beyond crossing creeks for 15 holes, you get punched in the face by two obnoxious ponds on 16, a blah par three at the 17th, and then the steroidal 18th. Once you figure out your angle on the 18, you are set. It becomes driver, lay-up, short iron. If you can putt at all, you make 4 or 5 and that is that.


It is massively photogenic from a number of angles. It must be fun to take a drone out over the lake and shoot the hell out of the place. I'm in your camp, Franco...it's more hat than cattle.

[Ronald Montesano]

Now that I've written that, I have to ask...who has rated it and how?


To the best of my knowledge, it has never been called the best anything. Not the best finishing hole in the game, not the best par five in the game...


Should the title of the thread be "Is the 18th at Leatherstocking more hat than cattle? More style than substance?"

[Frank M]

Ron: the title is simply is it overrated. I did not think that infers someone has called it the best finishing hole or par-5 in the game.

Overrated in regards to what? I have read many call it a great finishing hole, a great par-5 and a ton of people call it a signature hole.

[John Foley]

It's not a great golf hole. With the tee in the lake it is unique. The green, w/ it's tier, is good. But between the two there is nothing. The place in the routing makes it special, cool way to finish the round. I would never call it a great individual hole, but I like the way it fits w/in the round. Agree w/ Frank that the routing is compact, but when we like close green to tee walks this is what you are going to get.


Love the course and can't wait to get back. Frank what about the rest of the course?

[Ronald Montesano]

That's what i was after. I didn't understand the rating reference. It is an unforgettable hole, sort of like an unforgettable beauty or song (Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, for example.) Once you get past the moment and begin to assess the value/test of time, things get interesting!!


It appears that you've taken a bit of umbrage with my questioning and that was certainly not my intent. Give me back my umbrage!


I've enjoyed this thread and wanted to determine what the genesis for "overrated" was; you've answered it in spades.


RM

Now that I've written that, I have to ask...who has rated it and how?

To the best of my knowledge, it has never been called the best anything. Not the best finishing hole in the game, not the best par five in the game...

Should the title of the thread be "Is the 18th at Leatherstocking more hat than cattle? More style than substance?"

Ron: the title is simply is it overrated. I did not think that infers someone has called it the best finishing hole or par-5 in the game. It simply asks if it is overrated.

Overrated in regards to what? I have read many call it a great finishing hole, a great par-5 and a ton of people call it a signature( ) hole.

[MCirba]

No, the 18th isn't overrated by any stretch.   It's one of those holes where executing 3 dry shots and walking away with a par or birdie is unforgettable for most golfers.

The fact that it occupies flattish ground is frankly welcome relief after the rollicking walk that precedes it.   What could be grander than a stroll home along the lakeside towards that impressive structure behind the green.

Now the 17th, on the other hand...

[Frank M]

John_F: I think we see the 18th in similar fashion. Regarding the rest of the course, it's just too much fun. Cool greens, some very good bunkering, and yes, I even don't mind the finish for all that it is (except 17).   

Ron: No umbrage whatsoever. I apologize if it came across that way. Look at us, we're now both apologizing for the shortcomings of internet banter.

MCirba: Agree about 17. 

[John Blain]

John_F: I think we see the 18th in similar fashion. Regarding the rest of the course, it's just too much fun. Cool greens, some very good bunkering, and yes, I even don't mind the finish for all that it is (except 17).   

Ron: No umbrage whatsoever. I apologize if it came across that way. Look at us, we're now both apologizing for the shortcomings of internet banter.

MCirba: Agree about 17.

What's wrong with 17? Not saying it's any kind of fantastic hole but it's certainly a hole where you need to "man-up" and hit a solid shot. Why is that so bad?

[Anton]

It's a good hole on a good course.  Not great.... not epic.... not spectacular.... just good.  The setting is lovely and I enjoyed my one round there (19+ years ago).  I would not mind a return trip someday though I would have numerous resorts listed ahead of it. 


Many holes at Leatherstocking are forgettable but some were good.  I seem to remember - excuse my memory if it is not so accurate - the 3rd hole (a par 3 with daunting bunkers to the right) being a strong hole.  Also the 10th (a mid range par 4) being fun & a stern test since the green was small with deep walled bunkers leading up to a plateau.  I also remember the course being very very thick & green due to a wet spring.  The rough was deep and greens/fairways were exceptionally maintained.   

[Doug Wright]

I've only played the 18th hole at Leatherstocking once--50 years ago. And I remember it like it was yesterday. Can't say that about too many holes from my teen years (including other Leatherstocking holes), so it passes one of my tests of a good golf hole--memorability.

[Ronald Montesano]

John, it's my fault for wanting more. After the first 15 holes, glorious yodels from a byegone era, the final three leave me unsatisfied. I'm fine with 18 as it is, for the reason that Doug states: you never forget it. You are right about the "man up" of 17, but I just don't like it. I think that the green is awkward in its angle to the tee. Having the thin part up against the water forces you to play longer. From that far away (5 iron or so) it's hard to hold the green. 16 has that great elevated tee, but you can't take advantage of it, due to the bunkers left and the water right. After so many holes that offer options, the final three holes seem bent on taking those options away.

John_F: I think we see the 18th in similar fashion. Regarding the rest of the course, it's just too much fun. Cool greens, some very good bunkering, and yes, I even don't mind the finish for all that it is (except 17).   

Ron: No umbrage whatsoever. I apologize if it came across that way. Look at us, we're now both apologizing for the shortcomings of internet banter.

MCirba: Agree about 17.

What's wrong with 17? Not saying it's any kind of fantastic hole but it's certainly a hole where you need to "man-up" and hit a solid shot. Why is that so bad?

[Frank M]

John, it's my fault for wanting more. After the first 15 holes, glorious yodels from a byegone era, the final three leave me unsatisfied. I'm fine with 18 as it is, for the reason that Doug states: you never forget it. You are right about the "man up" of 17, but I just don't like it. I think that the green is awkward in its angle to the tee. Having the thin part up against the water forces you to play longer. From that far away (5 iron or so) it's hard to hold the green. 16 has that great elevated tee, but you can't take advantage of it, due to the bunkers left and the water right. After so many holes that offer options, the final three holes seem bent on taking those options away.

Well said, though I don't think it's your fault. As I mentioned, after what comes before, it's hard to like those last three holes. 16 and 18 have redeeming qualities that make them more acceptable than 17 for me. I wonder if they have or would ever consider moving the green left and maybe having only half the green guarded by water with some fairway between the path and water. I think this would open up a lot more options...maybe another opportunity at a sort of reverse redan albeit with water?