News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
What if Sand Hills was never built?
« on: May 13, 2017, 04:24:49 PM »
I was thinking about the great impact that Sand Hills had on golf course design and construction and was wondering what would have happened if it had never been built.  Dick Youngscap took a big chance when he built the course and so many courses might never have been built if Sand Hills hadn't received such acclaim.


To me it influenced gca in 3 areas:


1.  It was perhaps the first significant modern minimalist course where very little dirt was moved to construct the course.


2.  It had two great short risk/reward par 4s. and


3.  It showed that there was no formula that had to be followed in order for a course to be recognized as a great routing and design.  By that I mean the back to back short par 4s which are not the required formula for acceptable routing as viewed by architects prior to SH.  Pacific Dunes is recognized as a great course but there would have been a great deal of criticism for its routing if not for SH.


So getting back to the question: Would the other minimalist courses have been built and if so, which one would have been first?


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2017, 04:36:17 PM »
I feel its greatest impact has been to open up all these seemingly remote locations where great golf courses have been built in the years since.


Open up may not be the perfect term, but it seemed to have prove the viability of the destination golf business model.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2017, 04:42:10 PM »
Jerry:


I'm not sure your reading of history is spot on.


Sand Hills has had an enormous influence on convincing people that a course in a remote location could be successful.  And Dick Youngscap deserves all the credit in the world for taking that chance.


But, both Bill Coore and I had built other minimalist courses in the years before that, so Sand Hills didn't start the style ... it popularized the style.  [And it's not like we invented the style; we were both inspired by all the Golden Age courses we'd seen.]  Nor had we just figured out that bucking the "required formula" could be done to one's advantage.  High Pointe was par 37-34=71, and the Plantation Course at Kapalua is a par-73 with only three short holes.  They just weren't on a piece of land as good as Sand Hills is on.


Mike Keiser was already looking for land for a project when he agreed to invest a little bit in Sand Hills.  For sure, its success helped convince him that there was money to be made in Bandon ... but I think he would have developed Bandon Dunes anyway.  In fact, he might have hired Bill & Ben first, but since they had done Sand Hills, I think he went with someone else because he didn't want to be seen as copying Dick Youngscap too closely.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2017, 04:43:57 PM »
Jerry - I wonder: would 99 architects mucking around on 99 sites for 99 years eventually have created it?


I think Jim is probably right. But I think the demographic, social and economic shifts of the last few decades have - if not dictated - necessitated a new kind of "ideal" golf course. If it wasn't C&C at Sand Hills, it soon afterwards would've been some other good and astute and ambitious architect creating a similar golfer-and-tradition-centered course.     

Scott McWethy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2017, 09:24:45 PM »
To answer the question of the thread:    I would be very, very sad!!!  It is truly a magical place and am so thankful for all the people that came together and believed that people would make the trip.  I know I'm not adding any insight as to how it would have affected modern golf course design, but there's something about being in the middle of nowhere and playing golf on such a great piece of land.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2017, 10:15:39 PM »
Tom: There may have been others before SH but did they really have the impact that it did? Without it would the minimalist concept have been as successful as quickly as it was?  I don't want to challenge you on this but do you actually know why Mike Keiser did not use C & C at Bandon? Sure, he could say that he didn't want to look like he was copying Mr. Youngscap but he was putting a great deal of money and reputation on the line and if he believed that C & C would be the surest way to success then as a successful businessman I would guess that he would have chosen that route. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2017, 10:23:36 PM »
Tom: There may have been others before SH but did they really have the impact that it did? Without it would the minimalist concept have been as successful as quickly as it was?  I don't want to challenge you on this but do you actually know why Mike Keiser did not use C & C at Bandon? Sure, he could say that he didn't want to look like he was copying Mr. Youngscap but he was putting a great deal of money and reputation on the line and if he believed that C & C would be the surest way to success then as a successful businessman I would guess that he would have chosen that route.


I've never asked Mike directly about that, but Steve Goodwin's book makes the case that Mike avoided working with Bill and Ben for that reason.  I do know some other details that I am not able to share.


And no, of course High Pointe and Kapalua did not have the impact that Sand Hills did.  Is that your definition of "significant" ?  You asked if other minimalist courses would have been built, and my point was that they were ALREADY being built, and I believe they would have continued to be built, not least because I'm fairly stubborn, and I believe Bill Coore believes in what he does, too.

BCowan

Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2017, 10:27:27 PM »
Tom,


To simplify your post, you are saying that minimalist courses were and would continue to be built without SH.  Courses that wouldn't require someone to sell their mother down the river to play...

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2017, 06:15:55 AM »
Tom: By no means did I wish to imply that you or Bill were doing anything other than what you believe in but I am saying that SH was significant because it received so much acclaim that minimalism gained the recognition that it deserved and to some degree became the leader or standard for golf course design.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2017, 07:51:06 AM »





1.  It was perhaps the first significant modern minimalist course where very little dirt was moved to construct the course.

The Golf Club by Pete Dye or the earlier version of Crooked Stick  is the true foundation of Minimalism, not Sand Hills.


2.  It had two great short risk/reward par 4s. and

Places like Oakmont, Cypress Point and Pine Valley are still a far bigger influences on this ideal


3.  It showed that there was no formula that had to be followed in order for a course to be recognized as a great routing and design.  By that I mean the back to back short par 4s which are not the required formula for acceptable routing as viewed by architects prior to SH.  Pacific Dunes is recognized as a great course but there would have been a great deal of criticism for its routing if not for SH.

The Old Course, Cypress Point and other earlier works play a far greater inspiration to the unconventional.


It's influence on Mike may be the key moment for the Second Golden Age, but I struggle with the other assertions made.




« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 07:58:36 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2017, 07:55:27 AM »
People would have built/continued to build minimalist courses if Sand Hills didn't exist becuse it's just the smart, sensible, and economical way to build a golf course no matter where you are in the world. You just wouldn't have heard about Minimal Golf Architecture as fast.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2017, 08:48:07 AM »
I remember when Sand Hills was built, there was nothing like it.  It was a course (even more different and unique than Harbour Town was when it was first built) that changed everything. 



I do agree that there were other courses prior that were minimalist but none that got the golf world's attention like Sand Hills.  Also, as much as I love The Plantation Course, I am not sure I would call it minimalist.  I think the cart paths there alone cost more than the entire project at Sand Hills.  The Golf Club is great but it looks a bit contrived unlike Sand Hills with all its rail road ties jutting out everywhere.


Not many get to play Sand Hills, that is probably the one argument that can be made about its influence, but most have heard of it and surely did around the time it was found (built)  :)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2017, 09:23:29 AM »
Friar's Head would've probably had a different architect, and definitely a different first Head Pro
Kenny Bakst made a love connection with Crenshaw during the '97 Masters, but I'm sure SH confirmed he was the guy for him.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2017, 01:26:20 PM »
IIRC, Ron Whitten had something to do with the growing recognition among golf and GCA enthusiasts that there was a place where one could go to practice minimalism and get back to original design and terrain aspects of the ancient game.  He talked about it in the Cornish and Whitten book.  As a native of Nebraska, he was well familiar with the sand hills and the endless land of sand and grass possibilities.  I think he was an early advocate to Dick Youngscapp after DY's Firethorn success, to look west into the sand hills for a unique possibility for a golf development like we had not seen prior. 

I would yield to Tom Doak or someone in the early Dye entourage of young designers and shapers to fact check if I am on course with these now vague recollections. 

But of course, minimalism itself wasn't nothing new.  Just as Jaeger suggests, the very desire for finding an efficient and less costly way to develop and design a golf course offering authentic and traditional 'old sod' links experience points to minimalism, and a sandy loamy sight where turf can be grown and maintained at minimal costs, and feature design could tread lightly on interesting rolling terrain. 

I think that the era of the big bombastic projects where developers wanted to inject their ego to tame the land into a show stopper golf and mansion district development, or lavish resort set the table for the anti-thesis of return to minimalist movement, when knowledgeable golfers who were familiar with the ancient game on the old sod decided that what was being turned out in the mega lavish and expensive projects was not really adding anything substantive to the game nor its enjoyment nor availability to more golfers rather than restricting it to fewer players by virtue of access and cost. 

Now, I feel that we have entered a paradox in terms and intent when we see minimalism practiced for both the pure aspects of designing a course of play for a game of traditional and authentic characteristics, yet with extravagant resort style amenities of lavish club houses and upscale hotel lodgings, which are true to the golf course minimalism, yet undermine the accessibility to the many who would like to experience the golf, but can't afford the cost of freight.  And of course some of that can't be helped due to the remote places minimalism needs to go to find the right site conditions.  catch-22 it seems.

My beloved Wild Horse gets a bit of both positive aspects (positive in my mind anyway) of minimalism on excellent terrain to design greatness, and applying the economic aspect of minimalism to provide a more widely accessible to many venue in terms of cost.

I'm not sure what they will do with Wolf Pointe, but that also has the minimal aspect where many benefits of design and economical efficiency to operate could be turned into a great public experience.  Hoping that will someday be the case.

Sand Hills was inevitable in all its evolved features and concepts of minimalism of design/ construction efficiency on excellent terrain, if you ask me.  True golf enthusiasts were always going to seek to re-create the great playing aspects of the ancient game and fields upon which it originated.  The modern and well healed golfer was just going to also require some creature comforts and Youngscapp's vision gave them the perfect setting.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2017, 01:37:07 PM »
Not to quibble over the fine print but when we say "minimalism" in this thread don't we really mean "naturalism".


I recall a few epic threads on Pac Dunes where it was asserted that the goal was to make it look natural, as if little dirt was moved, as opposed to actually not having to move a bunch of earth in various spots to achieve that goal?


For anyone who knows, how much sand was moved around to create Sand Hills?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 01:54:26 PM »
Kalen, I think the quantity of 'dirt moved' at SH has become a bit mythical or legendary.  From early on, I heard the number 4000-5000 cy just to basically shape teeing grounds, and everything else was merely turning over the prairie and smoothing and shaping FWs and greens for seeding.  How many cys could be vague indicator. 

I wonder if not to some extent, just as valid of an indicator of the minimalism aspect is: how few macinery operators and how few pieces of equipment were used on some of these minimalist courses.  Also, how rudimentary is the irrigation and supply system.

I had seen a few minimalist courses in Ireland the last few years where some pretty natural looking golf courses of great enjoyable playing aspects were apparently being offered up for not much maintenance cost to maintain adequate playing fields.  Both minimalist and naturalist.   8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built? New
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 01:59:20 PM »
Minimalism in golf is a far cry from minimalism on the pocket. I'm a fan of the product, not so much the costs of said product. Funny enough, I think minimalism has become a form of unsustainable golf, at least minimalism as viewed by most today.   

In regards to the original questions, I think Sand Hills' greatest impact was on destination or remote destination golf. 

When it comes to questions 2 and 3, there are an inconceivable amount of courses that came before Sand Hills that didn't follow a formula and demonstrated a formula doesn't need to be followed.

Finally, I'm not sure which "other" minimalist courses you are speaking of, but IMO minimalist golf would have gone on the same, it may have even been better off without Sand Hills, from a perspective of affordability and sustainability of the game.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 12:51:32 AM by Frank M »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2017, 12:07:12 AM »
Sand Hills was part of the rise to the top which includes and caused other similar courses to be built. This rise brought people like Tom and Coore to a broader profile and saved countless old courses because the members finally begin hiring these guys to restore or update or whatever at a time that the ball was out of control. Who knows how many good to great places were spared aimless changes in the name of progress.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2017, 03:22:41 AM »
Folks can quibble all day, but the impact of Sand Hills, even if it is unclear as to how, is quite clear in the broader picture.  How do I know...Sand Hills is probably cited more often than all of the other courses of that time and ilk...combined.  It doesn't matter which came first.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2017, 05:55:34 AM »
Never been there, doubt I ever will, but if Sand Hills had not been built it would have been sad day for golf. Not because it was or wasn't or whatever the first of a kind but because, for whatever reason, it highlighted to a wider audience golf in such areas on such landscapes. Golf has generally benefitted as a result.


From 2005 - http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/sand-hills/

atb




BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2017, 06:50:35 AM »
I have not played Sand Hills. As far as I'm concerned, if Sand Hills had not been built, it would have no impact on the golf I play and have played.

BCowan

Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2017, 08:02:49 AM »
I have not played Sand Hills. As far as I'm concerned, if Sand Hills had not been built, it would have no impact on the golf I play and have played.


There is so much good-great golf in Ohio there is really no reason to leave. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2017, 09:10:22 AM »

Like RJ, I heard 6,000 CY was moved by scrapers or what not.  I suspect some of it was the notch on 9FW that allows you to see some of the fw from the tee.


Many other greens and tees had dozers move small bits of earth around, balancing cut and fill on site.


Great course. Ushered in a new contingent of top architects and spread a new line of design thought. It gave other architects something new to copy, regardless of how it fit, and this biz is nothing if not a copycat world, for the most part.  I do wonder if placing "sand hills" jagged edge bunkers on so many diverse sites is really a good idea. 


On the negative side, it is almost inevitable that it spawned (eventually) one more similar concept course in the outback than can possibly be supported by the rich who would buy such memberships.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2017, 09:25:03 AM »
Sand Hills was part of the rise to the top which includes and caused other similar courses to be built. This rise brought people like Tom and Coore to a broader profile and saved countless old courses because the members finally begin hiring these guys to restore or update or whatever at a time that the ball was out of control.


I was already consulting at several of those courses before Sand Hills was built.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What if Sand Hills was never built?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2017, 09:33:01 AM »
I have not played Sand Hills. As far as I'm concerned, if Sand Hills had not been built, it would have no impact on the golf I play and have played.


Reminds me of a Beetles song: "I Me Mine"


http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/beatles/imemine.html




Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back