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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2008, 04:33:34 PM »
Dan,
I'm looking but you will want to know that NONE of the land that SUNY-Buffalo occupies was ever CCB land.  SUNY-Buffalo is across Bailey, while CCB extended to the tip of Bailey, Lebrun and Winspear.  The VA Hospital and King Kong's Dong (local name for the water tower) are there now.

Ron M.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2008, 09:49:50 PM »
(The following is the text meant to accompany my two images, but I receive an error message that the upload folder is full.  Any thoughts, Ran and others?  Images are less than 128kb.)

Let's see how I did with my first attachment.  The larger course is the 1912 layout.  The smaller inset is the current layout.  Holes 1 and 18 are virt. identical.  The first big difference happens in the neck that I used to sneak on as a kid (right under the fence by the second green.)  You'll see that four parallel holes used to run there.  Now there is a par three and a lot of space in between.  Interesting that the 3rd and 5th holes teed off across Eggert Road, impossible today.  The land where 8, 9 and 10 tee were, is now V.A. Hospital property.  10 was the only par six in the history of the US Open.  If the entrance road far left that bisects 12 is in the same place today, then the land above the road (2nd half of 12, 13, and tee deck of 14) is now private homes.  17 as it was no longer exists.  Cannot imagine how it was shorter than 10, but it was, by 60 yards.

I wanted to post the text of my article, but cannot find the digital copy (laptop was reimaged this Summer.)  I'll keep digging, but can scan the whole thing from the magazine...maybe I can find it online.  I'll let you know.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

George_Bahto

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2008, 10:01:54 AM »
"King Kong's Dong"  -- now thatz really funny
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2008, 01:35:17 PM »
Thanks, George.

Since I cannot paste images yet to my posts, here are two google docs URLs that should get us where we need to go.

Course Maps, Then and Now
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcq7jkrv_0dsqjw3gw

Course Scorecards, Then and Now
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcq7jkrv_2ct5b47hh

Let me know if you can access them.  When I clicked ADDITIONAL OPTIONS and tried to attach the images to my previous post, I was denied like a short man in the NBA.  Any tutelage is appreciated.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2008, 01:37:34 PM »
Ronald - thanks for the info - I didn't know the property didn't extend across Bailey.

BTW - I think that SUNY/Buffalo (north campus) was originally a state hospital.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

DMoriarty

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2008, 03:34:48 PM »
Ronald,

Thanks for the links. 

I hope you don't mind but I put them on here(by putting the address in the following format, only without the spaces before and after the brackets spaces:

 [ img ]http://. . . . . .jpg[ /img ]



and

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2008, 04:28:13 PM »
wow - great map!  I had the orientation figured all wrong.  I'm surprised it went up Bailey that far from Main Street.


TEPaul

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2008, 05:00:58 PM »
"Since he has many more years in dealing with the absurd, agenda driven misrepresentations regarding MacDonald than I have, I thought it might find the comment entertaining."


Absurd, agenda driven misrepresentations regarding Macdonald??

I wonder what that means. GeorgeB, do you have any idea what that means? Whether you do or not do you see anything humorous about it?

George:

Macdonald's family came from Niagra Falls or environs, didn't they? If so, it doesn't surprise me that Macdonald or his family may've had some generational friends in and around Buffalo. Didn't Macdonald have access to some family home up there?   


George_Bahto

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2008, 05:13:59 PM »
Macdonald's family lived in Chicago

They had a summer (vacation) hole in Niagra Falls, Canada
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 10:00:49 AM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »
George:

I thought Macdonald's forebearers came from the Canadian side of Niargra Falls. I know his father moved to Chicago and his grandfather was from St Andrews, right?

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2008, 06:21:10 PM »
Tom - that would make sense (the Ontario side).  The English/Scottish folks tended to gravitate to the Canadian side.    I wouldn't be surprised if he frequented Niagara-on-the-Lake (a very beautiful place at the mouth of the Niagara River)

In fact, here's a write-up from Niagara-on-the-Lake golf club's history page:
When John Geale Dickenson first laid out a few golf holes in 1875 on the Fort George common, which was just across the road from the family home on John Street, little did he know that it was just the beginning of part of North America's golf history.

Niagara-on-the-Lake Golf Course had the distinction of being host to the first ever-international tournament held in North America. That event - the Niagara International - was held September 5-7, 1895.

At the first Niagara International, the first hole served as the host of the longest drive championship. The eventual winner of both the tournament and the longest drive was an individual named Charles B. Macdonald of the Chicago Golf Club. He later would lay claim to the first official U.S. Amateur championship at Newport Golf Club. On the first hole he blasted a drive 179 yards, one foot and 6 inches.

Ian Andrew

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2008, 07:31:12 PM »
Ronald,

I think this is your course. It was the home to the Park Club from 1909 until Travis built the course for them at Orchard Park in 1916 (opened in 1917). Course operated as a satellite course until 1946 when it was sold to a membership group.

They found new land in 1924 (closer to Buffalo) and hired Charles Alison to build their current course in 1926 (opened in 1928).




wsmorrison

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2008, 07:51:14 PM »
Thanks for posting the photo, Ian.  Chocolate drops and geometric features galore.  That is of an era.  Thankfully a long gone one  ;)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2008, 08:11:32 PM »
I don't know, Ian.  There is a body of water in the lowest portion that might be Hoyt Lake, in the southern portion of Delaware Park.  If so, then we have our first CCB/Park Club course.  That big white scar toward the top might be the beginnings of the 1901 Pan Am Exposition, where President McKinley was assassinated.  They built the pavilions on a farmer's acreage.  It's all private housing now.

Origin of the photo?  Any words or clues that might be more familiar to me than you?

Park Club (Colt/Allison) has its course in Williamsville, about a mile from CCB (Ross).  Park then built a second course in Orchard Park (Travis) when membership got to be enormous.  They are now two separate entities.  Ault & Co. came in a decade ago to "improve" Orchard Park.  One hole is good, the other is bad.  That fourth hole at OPCC that you referenced in another thread is a gem.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Thomas MacWood

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2008, 08:35:01 PM »
I believe the course in Ian's picture is Wanekah. If its not Wanekah the two courses shares similar features.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:41:20 PM by Tom MacWood »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2008, 09:17:31 PM »
I don't think it's Wanakah and here's why...the road at the bottom would be Route 5, and the holes at Wanakah run perpendicular to route 5.  The ones in the picture run parallel to route 5.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ian Andrew

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2008, 10:04:40 PM »
In the plan that goes with this - it lists Delaware Park. The course was only nine holes at the time. These holes would be the 2-5 on your plan.

The white strips are tennis courts.

Source: Park CC History

George_Bahto

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Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2008, 10:12:11 PM »
Charles Blair Macdonald:    

   "It was early in August of 1872 when I was first introduced to golf. I was 16 years old then.  My father desired that I should go to my grandfather in St. Andrews, Scotland, and there complete my education at the university, the United Colleges of St. Salvador and St. Leonard's. I left Chicago in July, placed in the care of a family friend, Mr. Kirkwood. We crossed the Atlantic in the "Scotia", a side-wheel steamer of the Cunard Line, the last of it's character that ever crossed the Atlantic".

then later:

Upon returning in the fall of 1874, 18 year-old Charles Macdonald found Chicago still in total devastation.  The fire of 1871 was followed by "The Panic of 1873"; a depression of unprecedented magnitude. Men fortunate to find work toiled twelve to sixteen hours a day, with the thought of participating in a leisure activity inconceivable. "Certainly, bankers would call in a loan - if one were fortunate enough to get so rare an accommodation - of anyone who attended to anything outside of business", cited Macdonald.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2008, 10:16:47 PM »
Ian,

Any date whatsoever for the photo?  It's definitely Hoyt Lake at the bottom.  The road heading north-south at the far left would have been the promenade (main drag) of the Pan Am exposition, now called Lincoln Parkway.

On another topic, how did you come by the Park Club history?  Are you doing or have you done work with them?  Great par threes at that club, especially 5 and 13.  10 is a beast and 8 is undervalued.  I love 14 and 15 for short par fours (used to be medium par fours.)  The finishing three 4s are terrific.  Weird that it finishes with five consecutive 4 pars.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Thomas MacWood

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2008, 10:17:18 PM »
Ronald,

Thanks for the links. 

I hope you don't mind but I put them on here(by putting the address in the following format, only without the spaces before and after the brackets spaces:

 [ img ]http://. . . . . .jpg[ /img ]



and



Thomas MacWood

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2008, 10:34:17 PM »
With all the similar names and all the name changes I'm having a hard time following what is what. Could someone list the courses, when they were built, and the name changes over the years, and the architects if you know them?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2008, 10:41:04 PM »
Here is the basic breakdown.

Country Club of Buffalo 1--Delaware Park, Buffalo
   (turned over and into Park Club when CCB built...)

Country Club of Buffalo 2--Main/Bailey-Site of 1912 US Open.
   (built by Dr. Cary, improved by Travis for Open, visited and refined by Ross after US Open, as members wanted another Open.)

Country Club of Buffalo 3--Williamsville(east of Buffalo)--1920s--Current site of club.  Built by Ross.

Park Club had its current site (Williamsville, 1 mile from CCB 3) built by
     Colt/Allison after it outgrew the Delaware Park site.  As membership increased, a second Park Club in Orchard Park (south of Buffalo) was built by Travis to allay traffic.  The clubs are now separate entities.

Does that help?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Thomas MacWood

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2008, 06:32:51 AM »
Ronald
That helps. Thanks. I wasn't sure if there were three or four courses we were talking about. Aprox what year were the first two built and which course was the 3 hole course expanded by Macdonald & Co? #2?
And which one was converted into a public course? #2?

Ian Andrew

Re: Charlie Macdonald early C C of Buffalo
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2008, 07:50:23 AM »
Tom,

You'll have to wait until I get home again - I'm sitting in the airport right now.

I have a plan for "only" nine holes and will post that plan later on. I was under the impression that when the Park Club played out of there that it was nine holes.

Ian