A Proper Redan?

[ward peyronnin]

I encountered a par three today clearly intended to be a Redan on a "modern" course "designed" by a pro golfer. The green was benched into the top of a slope.

This position dictated that there was no back bunker or rear fall off. More questionable to me was that probably 70% of the putting surface between the right margin and left lower part of the green was not visible. It was a good looking hole but if one is to incorporate this style hole how beholden is one to classic Redan features. I have NB's original and I seem to recall that a lot of that ball action is blind too but the most recognized versions here in America I have seen  seem to delight by giving the player a proper view of his ball finishing the running option of play.

How do  these qualities influence the integrity of a well designed Redan?

[Tom_Doak]

Ward:


Indeed, most of the surface of the green on the Redan at North Berwick is invisible from the tee, and so, too, at at least a couple of C.B. Macdonald's interpretations [Piping Rock is the first one I remember].  So, visibility must not be a critical feature of the hole.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ward,


the blindness is a key factor in a true Redan. There is no 'proper' view of the ball s what you played was a hole that shares some of the characteristics with Redan but not the character.


Jon

[Scott Warren]

Ward,


I suppose a hole that shares almost all features with the 15th at NBWL is the truest reproduction of a Redan hole, but I will say I prefer the bastardised version that allows you to watch your ball in motion after it lands (eg. 4th at NGLA).


There are blind holes where I love the mystery of what has happened to your ball after it landed (approach to 3 at Cinque Ports, the drive on 5 at NSWGC, the drive on 4 at Barnbougle Dunes etc), I just prefer to watch the fun on a Redan.

[Niall C]

Ward

Not sure it really matters how well it adheres to the original as long as the green is firm enough to bring run and borrow into play with the tee shot. Is this hole a good one in its own right ?

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

The short answer is that one is not beholden at all. If a hole has one or two features that look like a Redan, it does not mean it should be judged as a Redan. It should be judged in its own right.

[ward peyronnin]

I play the hole today as it lies about 100 yards outside my host's back door; I walked it so don't know about firmness.

It seems pretty good hole and as clever as any other way to use the green platform in a routing although I would not call it a natural green site. Mostly I have recent set some higher standards for my golf course evaluations and I am trying to sense to what degree a designer is templating a whole( successfully or un) or , as Ally points merely taking advantage of some of the features.

I do agree with Niall that I really enjoyed seeing the ball run out at places like Mid Ocean and was a smidge disappointed at NB when so much of the hole was blind. Thanks

[Jon Wiggett]

Ward,


one of the main fascinations of Redan is the suspense of walking up to the green whilst not knowing just how close or not your ball is. I do think Redan works much better when played from much closer than the tee but it is still a fascinating hole each time you face it. I do understand your preference for seeing the ball at all times though think it has more to do with boosting the players ego rather than challenging the golfer's imagination (no dig at you intended).


Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Wardo


I agree with Jon.  The only real Redan is The Redan and it is and always has been blind.  All the other redan's are fake redans, even though many of them are very good (e.g. NGLA).


Rich

[ward peyronnin]

Thanks guys............your thoughtful replies have revealed my drift towards post 60 curmudgeonhood.

I should not evaluate on how true an interpretation of a classic hole is a hole  but how well it has been adapted to the site. That can be a thoughtful application or a careless imposition which would merit points off.

My particular hole is a transition hole which grants more liberal latitude for a bit of a problem and it is a pretty good solution
 

[Sean_A]

Chez Wardo

I guess my take is different if you are asking about a "proper Redan", but then that would mean we would have to define the characteristics of a "proper Redan" and know the intent of the archie.  I don't bother trying to figure that stuff out and instead look at the bigger picture....is the hole good and does the hole work with other 17 holes (and all the endless questions that question raises)?

Imagine if all the so called Redans in the world were actually "proper Redans"?  Jeepers...not good. 

Ciao   

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am surprised that the "Redan" has such a great following.

I have always thought a real Redan is actually rubbish.


Taking principles from it and modernising is much better.

[Niall C]

Adrian
 
I think you’re spot on. MacKenzie effectively modernised the concept with his Gibraltor design even though he denied any knowledge of the Redan before he designed it. I think I’m right in saying the Redans initial fame came when it was a two shotter anyway.
 
Niall