[Tim Martin]

Tim;  If the premise is that anyone other than a very good player will always aim at the middle because they are incapable of executing a more difficult choice, how does one differentiate the good holes from the others unless eye appeal is the measure?  If strategy and choices are a significant portion of the "art", then one can't downplay their impact by suggesting that no one interacts with the choices.  If that is the standard, then architecture is reduced to routing, engineering (e.g. drainage) and appearance.  If that is the case, we are all wasting a lot of time (maybe we are).

SL- For that particular shot I am comfortable that most people aim for the center of the green but certainly respect your right to disagree. I think you are overreaching when trying to extrapolate an example referencing one shot into a dissertation on how architecture is somehow being reduced or minimized.

[SL_Solow]

Tim,  Fair enough.  Is it your position that the premise applies only to shots to greens surrounded by sand/water/other difficult hazards?  If so, when do the scales tip so as to allow the average golfer to make choices?  Is this a function of risk reward with risk being multiplied as skill level decreases?  I am a great believer in offering players of all skill levels a relatively safe option on all shots and as such, recognize that holes where there is no bail out option limit choices and may create an incentive toward choosing the safest  play.  But part of the strategic interest is when players of any skill level are tempted to take a risk, even if cold calculation would suggest that it is likely to be a bad decision.  Indeed, many of the best holes are those that make the calculation difficult or at least make the more difficult shot very tempting.

[Tim Martin]

Tim,  Fair enough.  Is it your position that the premise applies only to shots to greens surrounded by sand/water/other difficult hazards?  If so, when do the scales tip so as to allow the average golfer to make choices?  Is this a function of risk reward with risk being multiplied as skill level decreases?  I am a great believer in offering players of all skill levels a relatively safe option on all shots and as such, recognize that holes where there is no bail out option limit choices and may create an incentive toward choosing the safest  play.  But part of the strategic interest is when players of any skill level are tempted to take a risk, even if cold calculation would suggest that it is likely to be a bad decision.  Indeed, many of the best holes are those that make the calculation difficult or at least make the more difficult shot very tempting.

SL-Thank you for the reply. My position remains that on that one shot at SH's 11th hole that most aim for the green. Every golfer has the option to employ any sort of strategy/choice so as to make the game intriguing and fun for them. As far as any further interpretation I will leave that for you to ponder.

[Joe Bausch]

I think 10-11 miles is a bit on the high side.

[Steve Fekety]

I think 10-11 miles is a bit on the high side.

Our caddie said if they double bag and do 2 loops, they go over 25 miles...10-11 might be right.  Who knows!

[John Kavanaugh]

I walked Erin Hills pushing my own cart. Google it, that makes it walkable.

[Joe Bausch]

I think 10-11 miles is a bit on the high side.

Our caddie said if they double bag and do 2 loops, they go over 25 miles...10-11 might be right.  Who knows!

Well, if a caddie says it is 10 miles, it must be correct! 

[Josh Tarble]

Our caddie said if they double bag and do 2 loops, they go over 25 miles...10-11 might be right.  Who knows!

I don't know why they tell people that...maybe if they're with someone really bad they might.  I know I walked just under 9 miles the day I played it.  It's a tough walk to be sure, but even if the straight line walk is 10,000 yards, which it isn't, that mean you'd still have to walk back and forth on the holes another 5.5 miles!

[Kalen Braley]

I think Tom D is on to something with his statement about Shinny 11. The reason why many of us high cappers are exactly that is because we often don't make the correct decision/wise play from shot to shot.   

[Phil McDade]

In addition to housing, where are the spectators going to park during the US Open?


I liked Erin Hills and I think it will be an interesting host for the US Open. But much like Chambers Bay, I'd rather watch on television than be there in person...unfortunately, the television coverage is still on Fox.

Two remote lots, both 25-30 miles from EHills, in the suburbs of Oconomowoc and Germantown, not exactly close-in Milwaukee suburbs. That should tell you how remote this course is. The USGA is funneling everyone to those two lots -- even those wanting to ride their bikes. Drop-off is at a nearby elementary school, a good 10-15 minute walk from the first tee. (For those unfamiliar with the course, EH is basically a very large triangle of land, and some of the more interesting places to watch -- up near 15 tee, the confluence of 4 green and 5 tee -- are a rugged hike from the 1st tee.


I swung by the course last weekend, and the USGA tents are up and being prepped; there is an area immediately east of the course entrance road that has been readied for parking, but my guess is that the area is for volunteers and others working at the tournament.


To my amazement -- despite one of the wetter springs of late in Wisconsin -- the course that day was being watered, according to a volunteer there.

[Sean_A]

So, its 10 miles, 8 miles?  Safe to say the walk isn't the strong point  Considering a well routed 6300 yard course is a touch over 4 miles, at what point does the walk become something which serves to cut the rhythm of the game and become a complete distraction?   

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

It's hot like three days a year in Wisconsin. Every damn day of the golfing season it is an easier walk than Ballyneal. Climate, elevation and surface tension matters.

[JC Urbina]

I thought the Ron Whitten article about Erin Hills  was a story about a process that you rarely hear.  Owner, co-designer, construction crew.


Most often the story is about some guy ( designer ) pointing a finger ( insert photo)  and telling the world what a great job he did.


Ron tells the story from many sides, as a writer, visionary and most importantly as a person who dreams about having that chance to have some input on the design.  Rake and shovel in hand, floating some greens and even mowing down the rough in the beginning so the vision can be uncovered.  All of the pieces that need to fit together along with pointing the finger.


You can decide if you like the architecture and find fault or praise but you can't take away the passion that people put into building these works of art.  To me the story was more about the creation then the hole by hole analysis and that is Ok with me.


He quickly points out all of the people that lent that helping hand, Rod Whitman, Chris Hunt, Dr Hurdzan, Dana Fry, Jason Straka and many others who did what was asked of them to bring a vision to reality.  It takes a village as our friend Michael Robin once said.

[John Kirk]

JC,

I agree.  I thought it was an unusual article for a major golf publication, very emotional and full of rough edges.

It will be interesting to see how the course looks and plays on TV for the big tournament, and how the players react to the design.

[Phil McDade]

Parker: re: #9:


I just didn't see any nuance to the hole that made it interesting. Anybody can build a par-3 hole surrounded by bunkers, so that is not enough to make it great; there's got to be a bit more to it. It's possible there is some nuance I missed - don't forget, when I saw it, #9 was just a bye hole, not even part of the main routing.  But I haven't heard anyone describe its subtle interests.


For contrast, I'd say the 11th at Shinnecock is great.  Surrounded by trouble, yes, but the trouble takes different forms and the green tilts sideways as well as back to front, all of which affects how you try to play it.  Very few people would stand on that tee and just think "hit it in the middle of the green," even if that's the correct play.


I realize my take on that is different from other people's.  There are lots of par-3's commonly thought of as great that are just greens surrounded by bunkers.  I just don't buy the party line on them.

Tom:


You picked a hole for comparison -- #11 at Shinnecock -- generally viewed as one of the best par 3s in the world. Fair enough.


But it's a distinctly different kind of par 3, as others point out, than the 9th at EHills. Somewhat akin to comparing the 13th at Augusta National to the 4th at Bethpage Black -- two par 5s, yes, but one's an apple and one's an orange.


Curious your thoughts re. the Postage Stamp at Royal Troon. That seems more like an apt comparison to the 9th at EHills -- both with elevated tees, exposed to the wind, smallish greens that are deeper than they are wide, and trouble in the form of sand lurking all about. The Postage Stamp is generally recognized as one of the UK's better par 3s.


I'm not necessarily saying the 9th is great -- but I think it's a very good test for a U.S. Open course.

[Tom_Doak]

Curious your thoughts re. the Postage Stamp at Royal Troon. That seems more like an apt comparison to the 9th at EHills -- both with elevated tees, exposed to the wind, smallish greens that are deeper than they are wide, and trouble in the form of sand lurking all about. The Postage Stamp is generally recognized as one of the UK's better par 3s.


I'm not necessarily saying the 9th is great -- but I think it's a very good test for a U.S. Open course.

Phil:


I like the Postage Stamp enough that we imitated it a bit for the 12th at Sebonack.  Note that we left a tiny bit of room in front of the green [as the Postage Stamp has] for a possible miss, and that we chose to have short grass off the back of the green, instead of another bunker there, which does provide a bit more food for thought.


Normally, I would say the Postage Stamp is a great hole, but I wouldn't say it's an ideal hole.  I remember the year they had the Women's Amateur there [a friend won it], that one of the days of stroke play qualifying there was a 30-mph crosswind on #8.  They really didn't have any good way to play the hole at all ... the only thing you could do was miss to the right so you were at least playing back into the wind for the second shot.


I'm just not as enamored with greens surrounded by bunkers as many others are.

[Phil McDade]

Tom:


One of the reasons I like the 9th at EHills is that it fits within the rhythm of the course: it's distinctly different than the rest of the course's par 3s (long, uphill 6th; downhill 13th; level 16th with -- hopefully -- the blind tee utilized for the U.S. Open), and -- along with the 8th -- begins a tough stretch of holes following the relatively easy beginning stretch of the front nine (based on U.S. Amateur scores from a few years ago).


But, as to your original point, EHills may not have a single great hole. Even the 12th has a green that -- give the tumult that proceeds it -- is relatively benign. Was it you that argued great holes need to have great greens? I think 2, 4, 8, 9, and 12 are the best of the bunch there, with 10, 14, 15, and potentially 16 in the running as very good golf holes as well. But great? Probably a fair point.


As for difficult short par 3s without bunkers, I haven't seen too many, but a few come to mind here in Wisconsin -- the 7th at Lawsonia (the boxcar hole), which perhaps isn't short-short, but plays at 161 yds from the tips; and the nifty little 6th at Eau Claire CC, which plays to 134 yds. Both are volcano greens with no bunkering (Lawsonia's left-side bunker has not been restored). The 3rd at the Langford-designed Spring Valley would be another candidate.

[Carl Rogers]

Superior Art overcomes the climate of its creation.

[Kalen Braley]

Just for fun, I fired up Google Earth to see how long the walk is at Erin Hills.


I measured from the back tees, starting at #1, and ending on 18 green.  Assuming you hit every fairway and every green you are looking at a walk of about 5 3/4 miles.  Throw in extra walking to account for missed fairways, missed greens, etc that could easily add an extra mile to the walk.  So while 8-10 miles is an exaggeration, its no doubt one of the longest courses to walk I've measured.  And even if you aren't playing the tips its still basically that long because on most holes, you have to walk past the back tees to get to the middle and front ones.

[Parker Page]

I'm just not as enamored with greens surrounded by bunkers as many others are.

Tom and JC – Would you humor me in giving some insight into one of your short par 3's?  Tom, I understand your logic in not being enamored with greens surrounded by bunkers (or hazards, ala 17 at Sawgrass) when it doesn't afford any risk/reward choice.  Would you be willing to walk me through #5 at Old MacDonald? 


First, would you consider it a "great" hole?


Second, where does the nuance come from?  Would you say it comes from the massive size of the green combined with the undulations?  Thus, there is risk in firing at certain pin placements lest you find yourself left with an automatic three putt?  Is that where the nuance has to come from – internal green contours – since the approach shot is so short?


Third, is there an example of a short par 3 whose nuance does not come from internal green contours?  Maybe #7 at Pebble?

[Bill Seitz]

Just for fun, I fired up Google Earth to see how long the walk is at Erin Hills.


I measured from the back tees, starting at #1, and ending on 18 green.  Assuming you hit every fairway and every green you are looking at a walk of about 5 3/4 miles.  Throw in extra walking to account for missed fairways, missed greens, etc that could easily add an extra mile to the walk.  So while 8-10 miles is an exaggeration, its no doubt one of the longest courses to walk I've measured.  And even if you aren't playing the tips its still basically that long because on most holes, you have to walk past the back tees to get to the middle and front ones.

After we played 36 there last summer, I did a little checking with google maps.  In general, a golf course is a golf course, and what makes one a much longer walk than another is green to tee transitions (unless you're walking around a lot of hazards or something).  Erin Hills had about 2,500 yards in transitions, so a mile and a half or so, which seems like a lot, measured from the center of the green to the green tees.  I play most of my golf at Kingsley, so I did a comparison, and transitions at Erin Hills were about a half mile longer than Kingsley.  Definitely a fair amount longer, probably about 15 minutes or so.

[Thomas Dai]

Erin Hills had about 2,500 yards in transitions, so a mile and a half or so, which seems like a lot, measured from the center of the green to the green tees.

Well analysed, but jeez, no wonder there is golf-mockery element in society.
A good walk spoilt?
Where, oh where is the game going?!
Dr "There should be little walking between the greens and tees" MacK' would surely turn in his grave
atb

[Kalen Braley]

Bill there were certainly a few ones that looked long in the aerials.


4 to 5
7 to 8
9 to 10
10 to 11


But in general, I didn't see anything "close", everything was a mid range to longish walk.

[Howard Riefs]

Here's the article itself, just posted on Golf Digest's website:


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/previewing-erin-hills

[Phil McDade]

My apologies if this has already been posted but Gary D'Amato of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is doing a seven part series on the making of Erin Hills leading up to the US Open.  The first two parts are on their website.  The links are below.  I enjoyed both.


http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/golf/2017-us-open/2017/05/05/making-erin-hills-part-1-most-perfect-site/100024980/


http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/2017/05/09/making-us-open-course-erin-hills-part-2/100990460/

Bumping this simply to encourage those interested in the topic to read these series of articles, very well done by Gary D'Amato. Six of the seven have been posted (#7 is coming this weekend), and the sixth installment is filled with a bunch of good details, not revealed before (to my knowledge) about just how close EHills came to losing the Amateur, and thus next month's US Open being held somewhere else. His ending is particularly well done -- a nice piece of writing, and the essence of bittersweet.

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