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Peter Flory

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2017, 04:42:42 PM »
Is there a way that an American course like EH can make the heather playable?  Can they do controlled burns or something? 

Parker Page

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2017, 11:35:56 PM »
Admitted bias up front – I'm a Golf Digest rater.  But I played Erin Hills before I became one, and I, for one, am a fan.  I think 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, and 18 are all very good holes.  3, 5, 11, 13, and 17 are certainly less memorable, so I get why Tom gave it a 6 in TCG.  However, in TCG and in previous posts on this thread, I have yet to hear a criticism other than: 1) it's hard to walk and 2) it's too long.  I would be interested in hearing someone offer a more detailed critique.  I honestly think its Digest ranking (#44) is about right – great shot values, strong variety, firm and fast conditioning, and beautiful.
Judge Smails: "How do you measure yourself against other golfers?"

Ty Webb: "...Height?"

Matt MacIver

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2017, 07:14:26 AM »
That 6 feel about right to me, based on my one play.  It was very windy that day, but perhaps that's just normal for the area?  I liked the width which made the wind less of a problem for me - finding my ball, that is.  But most of the greens I can remember were elevated above the fairway - push-ups or natural, I couldn't tell.  But there was limited ground game option and even hitting the domes surfaces was no guarantee the ball would stay on.  While I thought the drives were interesting, in hindsight I'm not sure there were preferable angles of play to set up a second shot, or that many but I could be wrong. 


A US Open- testing course?  Probably so I'm glad I played it prior to this years' event, but I won't go back under my own volition until I see all that SV will have to offer, and I'm thinking/hoping the courses and styles there will be more to my liking. 


I didn't play Lawsonia so would want to see that before going back.  Did play three at Kohler and think I'd rate EH on-par with Irish, and behind Straits and River (which was better than I anticipated). 

Terry Lavin

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2017, 01:09:03 PM »
Admitted bias up front – I'm a Golf Digest rater.  But I played Erin Hills before I became one, and I, for one, am a fan.  I think 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, and 18 are all very good holes.  3, 5, 11, 13, and 17 are certainly less memorable, so I get why Tom gave it a 6 in TCG.  However, in TCG and in previous posts on this thread, I have yet to hear a criticism other than: 1) it's hard to walk and 2) it's too long.  I would be interested in hearing someone offer a more detailed critique.  I honestly think its Digest ranking (#44) is about right – great shot values, strong variety, firm and fast conditioning, and beautiful.

My only sort of negative, global observation is that the course looks like it's a links course, but it seemed to play mostly like an aerial attack Fazio on steroids kind of golf course.  This is based on one play a few years ago, so I wouldn't give it too much weight.  I enjoyed my day there, liked the course a lot, loved the vibe in the pub and have every confidence that it will blow Chambers Bay out of the proverbial water this June.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Topp

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2017, 03:47:17 PM »
I think the course will prove to be a good venue.  It was very firm and fast when I played it. 

My biggest criticism is how long the walk is, but that probably is a good thing for a US Open venue.   

Howard Riefs

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2017, 04:02:58 PM »
Is there a way that an American course like EH can make the heather playable?  Can they do controlled burns or something?

They already do that:


https://erinhills.com/superintendents-corner/burn-day-at-erin-hills/
 
https://erinhills.com/superintendents-corner/taming-the-tall-fescue/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Kalen Braley

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2017, 11:10:45 AM »
Maybe its been addressed already, but where is everyone going to be housed for this Open?  I was under the impression EH is in the middle of nowhere...

BHoover

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2017, 11:15:34 AM »
In addition to housing, where are the spectators going to park during the US Open?


I liked Erin Hills and I think it will be an interesting host for the US Open. But much like Chambers Bay, I'd rather watch on television than be there in person...unfortunately, the television coverage is still on Fox.

Peter Flory

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2017, 12:11:33 PM »
It is only 37 miles from Milwaukee.  Olympia Fields was 34 miles from Chicago.  OFCC did have a train that went to the parking lot. 

There are 15 hotels within 14 miles of the course.  In addition, there are many hotels along I-94 between West Allis and Pewaukee and they are generally about 25 miles away from the course. 

It's about an hour from Lake Geneva and an hour from Kohler. 

I would imagine that a decent percentage of travelers will look at the house rental options as well.  Even though it is in rural Wisconsin, it is near a great chain of lakes in the Oconomowoc area, so there are some extremely nice houses for rent. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2017, 01:11:55 PM »
Admitted bias up front – I'm a Golf Digest rater.  But I played Erin Hills before I became one, and I, for one, am a fan.  I think 1, 2, 4, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, and 18 are all very good holes.  3, 5, 11, 13, and 17 are certainly less memorable, so I get why Tom gave it a 6 in TCG.  However, in TCG and in previous posts on this thread, I have yet to hear a criticism other than: 1) it's hard to walk and 2) it's too long.  I would be interested in hearing someone offer a more detailed critique.  I honestly think its Digest ranking (#44) is about right – great shot values, strong variety, firm and fast conditioning, and beautiful.


You don't get more than a 6 for "very good holes".  You get better than that when you have great holes.  What are the great holes at Erin Hills.  #12, maybe.  Anything else?

Jason Thurman

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2017, 01:59:22 PM »
At the risk of challenging GCA's resident tastemaker, I find 2, 4, 9, 12, and 15 to all be outstanding holes, and I'm tempted to include 14 in that group as well.


One of the hard things about evaluating Erin Hills is that its combination of excessively minimalist design and extreme elasticity makes it hard to evaluate holes individually. 4 is a perfect example - it's a hole that can play anywhere from ~350 to ~450 yards, with the challenge primarily provided by a combination of gently rumbling land, an intimidatingly shallow green, and a smattering of bunkers that are all in play in different ways on a given day depending on the day's tee and hole location. It can be a very different hole from one day to the next, and I suspect we'll see that in the US Open if the presentation of it during the US Amateur was any indication - Mike Davis will surely screw with tee and hole placements to vary the way the hole presents itself over the course of the tournament.


Contrast it with a hole like the 13th at Augusta, which is a tricky hole with plenty of scoring variation but with a much clearer playing challenge: Hug the hazard off the tee to cut off as much distance as possible, and then either take on the risk of hitting a well-defended green or play safely short and try to get up-and-down for birdie. The challenge isn't easy, but it is relatively straightforward to explain to someone like my wife who doesn't understand golf at all.


If we all play the 13th at Augusta in our imagination, we all probably play it about the same way - a perfect draw around the corner off the tee to set up a heroic second that we land safely on the green to set up our eagle. If we play the 4th at Erin Hills in our imagination, the differences between what we envision begin at the tee (which one are you playing!?) and the route to the cup each of us takes will largely depend on which side of that green we'll eventually pull our freshly-dropped birdie putt from. And the 4th is far from the only hole at Erin Hills that I could say this for - for proof of how hard it is to envision the "correct" play on some of the holes at Erin Hills, one doesn't need to look any further than Patrick Cantlay's meltdown on the ~350 yard 15 in the 2011 US Amateur when he overthought things after the tee was moved up a bit, pulled out an 8 iron on the tee, dumped it into a centerline bunker, and began the unraveling that would cost him the tournament. If I close my eyes and picture playing the 15th again, I spend a solid 20 seconds just planning where to hit my tee shot. I don't even know the play when I'm just daydreaming! When I close my eyes and picture playing a hole like 13 at Augusta, the daydream doesn't even begin until I'm already at the top of my backswing on the tee shot...


I don't know if that means 4 or 15 at Erin Hills are great holes or not. But I do think it makes them interesting holes, and I know I really enjoyed playing the course. I didn't necessarily want to run back to the first tee again - it's not a 36 or 54 hole kind of course - but as someone who loves to replay shots in my head with the endorphins from a tired pair of legs firing when I head to bed after a day of golf, I was as satisfied falling asleep after playing Erin Hills as I have been after any course. Sure, it's too long and has a few too many elevated tees and greens and the walk is often exaggerated but still a tough one. But it's also unlike (almost) any other course I've played in terms of its ability to present a variable challenge. It's a shame that it's an expensive resort course and such a challenging one to score on and walk at that. It stores a lot of secrets that would be a joy to unlock through multiple plays.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:03:54 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Greg Clark

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2017, 02:01:04 PM »
My apologies if this has already been posted but Gary D'Amato of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel is doing a seven part series on the making of Erin Hills leading up to the US Open.  The first two parts are on their website.  The links are below.  I enjoyed both.


http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/golf/2017-us-open/2017/05/05/making-erin-hills-part-1-most-perfect-site/100024980/


http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/2017/05/09/making-us-open-course-erin-hills-part-2/100990460/

Scott Weersing

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2017, 03:42:40 PM »
I was mentioned a couple of times in Ron's story, quoted once [most likely from an old GCA post] as bashing Dr. Hurdzan, and mentioned later that the guy who killed his wife had lobbied for me as the designer. 


Wait...what??


Here is the story about Steve Trattner.


http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/blogs/proof-and-hearsay/2016/09/03/mequon-man-seeks-withdraw-homicide-plea/89588452/


Joe Zucker

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2017, 03:53:59 PM »
I mostly agree with Jason.  Which pains me because he is taking shots at my hometown in his signature!  I think holes 2, 4, and 15 are excellent holes.  I don't know where the line of demarcation between very good and great is, but the variety of options on these three holes create a lot of thinking for the golfer.  Jason eloquently outlined the elasticity of the 4th and if I remember correctly, they shortened it to a drivable distance in one of the US Amateur rounds. 


The 2nd is my favorite hole on the course.  I've always hit driver to get as close as possible with the wedge and I'm never sure if this is the right play.   Missing to the right or laying up short can leave a blind shot into the green.  Even if you hit the perfect tee shot with a driver, it's still not a comfortable pitch to this green with the runoffs.  The amount of indecision this hole creates really stands out in my mind. The only only hole I can think of that has confused me this much is the short 16th at Holston Hills.


One point where I will disagree is the 9th.  I do not think this is a good hole and it seems like an awkward connector back to the clubhouse.  I don't love the view of the drop shot par 3 with a perimeter of bunkers.  It's a particularly penal hole when the wind is up, which seems to me most days out there.  The front part of the green repels a lot of shots and compartmentalized nature of that green does not fit with the rolling movement of the rest of the property. 


I'm not sure I have played enough top 100 courses to confidently state it's position, but it doesn't "wow" me in a way I would hope the 44th best course would.  This is mostly because it is a grueling walk on the hardest course I have ever played.  It was made to host a US Open and it will probably do that well.  It was not made to be a fun course for average players and that is a strike against it in my book.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 03:56:05 PM by Joe Zucker »

Phil McDade

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2017, 05:05:34 PM »
Always good to have Jason "Carnac the Magnificant" Thurman back assessing courses. (Jason, of course, knew what was going on in Cantlay's mind when he pulled that 8-iron out on 15, the tricky design befuddling his brain to no end. Occam's razor suggests he simply played a crappy shot, which happens all the time in golf.)


I agree with Joe -- #2 is the best hole out there. It certainly bamboozled the amateurs a few years back more than any hole at EH. It can yield a nice mix of birdies and bogeys -- always a good sign of a risk/reward hole with choices off the tee. Is 2 a great hole? Well, it's a fun one -- maybe not in the canon of the great short par 4s in the U.S., but it's pretty darn good and unusual to boot (blind tee shot w/ options, funky domed and tiny green, numerous ways to hit the approach shot, and you can run up a big number without the usual penal hazards of bunkers or water causing all the trouble).


12 certainly covers the most dramatic terrain, although the green is kinda blah after all the excitement that comes before it.


I like 9 a lot, and agree with Joe that it's borderline unfair -- nothing wrong with that for a U.S. Open. It's really exposed on that tee, and not hitting that green leads to big trouble. Sounds like some of the holes at Pine Valley, often upheld as one of our best courses.


I also like 10, with that massive depression off to the right luring tee balls. And 8 is solid -- that hole I'm guessing will play as one of the tougher ones at the U.S. Open.


The corridor of 3 and 4 is a real treat, and as Jason points out, 4's elasticity will make it fun to watch next month. I think 14 is a solid par 5, although I'll be curious to see how the pros take it on. I am still mixed about 15; I'm not as enamored as Jason is of the hole, and the intent of it -- a potentially driveable par 4 -- isn't carried out in the architecture. But a solid drive-and-pitch hole that's placed well in the round.


1, 5, 6, 7, 11, 13, 17 esp. (where's my esker?) and 18 don't do too much for me. 16 is a solid par 3 if they use the blind tee; pretty blah if they don't.



Jason Thurman

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2017, 05:35:04 PM »
Thanks Phil. It's great to be back.


I don't know what was going on in Cantlay's mind when he pulled the 8 iron out. But when a soon-to-be pro with that dude's game and a 1-up lead in the US Amateur final with four holes to play tees off on a 290 yard par 4 with an 8 iron and and hits the ball into a centerline hazard on his way to losing the hole to a par, I think it's fair to say he "overthought things."
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Phil McDade

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2017, 06:31:23 PM »
Or, maybe he's just like a lot of golfers (all of them, in fact -- even ones with much more distinguished careers than his so far; he certainly hasn't lived up to the hype that NBC put on him that week), and hit a really crappy shot under pressure that he's hit well a hundred times before.


I don't think Seve overthought that shank into the pond at 15 at Augusta in '86; he just hit a shank.....

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2017, 06:40:36 PM »
I don't think Seve overthought that shank into the pond at 15 at Augusta in '86; he just hit a shank it fat.....


FIFY
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Parker Page

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2017, 11:50:02 PM »


You don't get more than a 6 for "very good holes".  You get better than that when you have great holes.  What are the great holes at Erin Hills.  #12, maybe.  Anything else?


Tom, I was a little vague, lumping all those holes together.  Very good = 1, 8, and 18.  Great = 2, 4, 9, 12, 14, and 15.  I would love to get your feedback on what it is about those six holes I would consider "great" that doesn't resonate with you.  I'm particularly interested in 9 though.  It seems to me that it falls in the category of the great short par 3's (e.g. 7 at Pebble, 13 at Merion, 9 at Myopia, 11 at Shinnecock, et al).  The question being – can you control the accuracy and distance on a wedge shot to a small green?  Risk/reward is not part of the equation because it's so short.  What is it that prevents 9 from being "great" for you?  Too penal?  Gimmicky? 
Judge Smails: "How do you measure yourself against other golfers?"

Ty Webb: "...Height?"

jeffwarne

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2017, 07:51:46 AM »
When I played Erin Hills with the USGA Mid AM outing in 2008 I enjoyed it, and was blown away by the natural landforms. Reminded me of a modern Shinnecock-I also liked that they took a few cool chances (since blown up)
It was a tough walk, a huge scale, and plenty difficult and tough.
Sadly, I felt it was EXACTLY what the USGA needed/wanted for their events given the runaway scale of equipment, rather than bastardizing classic courses.
That was nearly 10 years ago and the scale of the pro game has only gotten larger.


If Tom Doak had gotten the job(read the article), I doubt the USGA would even consider a US Open there because my guess is it would have been built on a much more intimate, playable,"interesting/quirky" fun scale-and taken an hour less to play. And probably have been a course you WANTED to go back to the first tee to play more.


Now it will get the belt notcher seal of approval as a US Open site, and attract a different sort than say Bandon-built on a more human scale.


Sad that the two scales are almost mutually exclusive in the "modern" game.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 07:54:11 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2017, 08:42:38 AM »
Parker: re: #9:


I just didn't see any nuance to the hole that made it interesting. Anybody can build a par-3 hole surrounded by bunkers, so that is not enough to make it great; there's got to be a bit more to it. It's possible there is some nuance I missed - don't forget, when I saw it, #9 was just a bye hole, not even part of the main routing.  But I haven't heard anyone describe its subtle interests.


For contrast, I'd say the 11th at Shinnecock is great.  Surrounded by trouble, yes, but the trouble takes different forms and the green tilts sideways as well as back to front, all of which affects how you try to play it.  Very few people would stand on that tee and just think "hit it in the middle of the green," even if that's the correct play.


I realize my take on that is different from other people's.  There are lots of par-3's commonly thought of as great that are just greens surrounded by bunkers.  I just don't buy the party line on them.

Tim Martin

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2017, 12:13:28 PM »
Parker: re: #9:


I just didn't see any nuance to the hole that made it interesting. Anybody can build a par-3 hole surrounded by bunkers, so that is not enough to make it great; there's got to be a bit more to it. It's possible there is some nuance I missed - don't forget, when I saw it, #9 was just a bye hole, not even part of the main routing.  But I haven't heard anyone describe its subtle interests.


For contrast, I'd say the 11th at Shinnecock is great.  Surrounded by trouble, yes, but the trouble takes different forms and the green tilts sideways as well as back to front, all of which affects how you try to play it.  Very few people would stand on that tee and just think "hit it in the middle of the green," even if that's the correct play.


I realize my take on that is different from other people's.  There are lots of par-3's commonly thought of as great that are just greens surrounded by bunkers.  I just don't buy the party line on them.


Tom-I agree that Shinnecock 11 is a great par three but disagree completely as to most players of average skill picking a certain spot or quadrant of the green to hit. Almost everybody is aiming for the center of the green-period. At 160 yds from the back tee, uphill to a mostly blind green I think you are giving people too much credit. Pros and low digit ams maybe but the vast majority of the golfing population no.

SL_Solow

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2017, 12:54:51 PM »
Tim;  If the premise is that anyone other than a very good player will always aim at the middle because they are incapable of executing a more difficult choice, how does one differentiate the good holes from the others unless eye appeal is the measure?  If strategy and choices are a significant portion of the "art", then one can't downplay their impact by suggesting that no one interacts with the choices.  If that is the standard, then architecture is reduced to routing, engineering (e.g. drainage) and appearance.  If that is the case, we are all wasting a lot of time (maybe we are).

Peter Pallotta

Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2017, 01:56:05 PM »
SL - I've often wondered about this. From the perspective & experience of an average golfer, I've concluded that good architecture is good architecture because it engages & influences our intentions (even if sometimes not our actions) and because it focuses us on our potentialities and not (or at least not ruthlessly or without mercy) on our results.
Which is to say: we may in fact be wasting our time here, but not for the reason in question.
Peter
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 01:57:39 PM by Peter Pallotta »

V_Halyard

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Re: Erin Hills in Golf Digest
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2017, 02:24:43 PM »
My favorite was how they milked the fact that they'd hardly moved a teaspoon of dirt in parts of the course, like the original, and originally wonderful, second green.  That is until they modified the green to make it "fairer" and gain more pin positions.  I agree that it will probably make for a very good Open test.  I also agree that it's probably the least walkable course I've ever played that doesn't allow buggies.  I think any negativity sensed here comes primarily from a good place- i.e. it's a very good course on a great piece of property.  I also believe that I'll be playing 3 rounds up the road at Lawsonia Links for the price of 1 at EH as long as I'm ambulatory...


A good golfer will walk 10-11 Miles. Me, I'm good for about 12.5 on a zig-zag route ball hunting path.  Great FitBit course as you will definitely get in your steps... 
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

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