[Thomas Dai]

Once-upon-a-time cheap memberships were available - they were called 'artisan memberships' and clubs had artisan sections, a few clubs still do.
Would such be successful if re-introduced on a widespread basis?
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan

Lets hope you are right, but I have serious doubts that a scheme such as this will actually increase the pool of golfers.  I am exactly the guy they are targeting and it holds no appeal simply because the quality of the golf courses in the scheme, not surprisingly, is mediocre at best.

Ciao

Actually, I would think that the connoisseur of golf course architecture is not exactly  the target market for this initiative.


In the Manchester area however, you would have Reddish Vale and Manchester GC (Hopwood) to choose from, arguably the two best courses in town. If this scheme takes off I would anticipate many other mid level clubs with very good courses joining in.


If Kington and Cleeve Cloud were on board would it alter your view?

[Sean_A]

Duncan

Lets hope you are right, but I have serious doubts that a scheme such as this will actually increase the pool of golfers.  I am exactly the guy they are targeting and it holds no appeal simply because the quality of the golf courses in the scheme, not surprisingly, is mediocre at best.

Ciao

Actually, I would think that the connoisseur of golf course architecture is not exactly  the target market for this initiative.


In the Manchester area however, you would have Reddish Vale and Manchester GC (Hopwood) to choose from, arguably the two best courses in town. If this scheme takes off I would anticipate many other mid level clubs with very good courses joining in.


If Kington and Cleeve Cloud were on board would it alter your view?

Duncan

Therein lies the second problem.  So many of the member clubs are cheap to play.  At those prices, the casual once a month player can get his fill without a financial commitment and have even wider choice.  I reckon this scheme is best placed to retain golfers who are contemplating quitting/cutting golf financial commitment well back. Replacing full members with these folks doesn't address the core problem.  Like all other schemes, it merely delays the problem. This scheme still perpetuates dog eat dog....chasing too few customers for too many clubs. That said, maybe a delay is perhaps all that is required and the Mills will decide to join to clubs properly.  It is often the case when treating people that drugs are one arm of treatment, not a cure all.  I think this is much the same.  There needs to be a way to attract Mills while still retaining current members.  If I knew the answer to this I would be rich.

No, I wouldn't join the scheme if Kington and Cleeve Cloud were participating clubs simply because they are cheap to play.  I did think about joining Cleeve Cloud, but membership was far too expensive given the green fee.  The same is true of Kington given its distance from my house and the inhospitable weather which knocks a ton of days off the golfing calender. Still, if Kington was a town I really enjoyed, I would have joined 15 years ago. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean/Adrian,

Regarding the numbers game, the pool of golfers is there for the number of courses however overall not enough of those golfers are members of a club. If you reduced the cost base ie. the average cost of subscription, then you would undoubtedly induce some of those non-members to join a club. It is my contention this can be done by going back to the basics and shedding the unnecessary costs as mentioned in earlier posts.

After all, how often have you heard someone say the have left because they weren't using there membership enough and they couldn't justify the subs ? Probably loads and if these same people were honest they would probably admit that they were using the club as much or as little as they had done in previous years it was just that now the (increasing) cost had tipped them over the edge. When I think back to my days of youth and the fun of having the course to myself and my friends during the summer holidays it was because the membership was made up of a fair proportion of these fair weather golfers, who were very happy to be members at the then cost even if they didn't play that often.

That's what we should be aiming for again. Make a virtue out of reduction in non-core (ie. non golfing) costs together with emphasis on club and course. As an aside, that doesn't mean doing away with the clubhouse, but just being economical with how you use/staff it.

Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

Therein lies the second problem.  So many of the member clubs are cheap to play.  At those prices, the casual once a month player can get his fill without a financial commitment and have even wider choice. 

No question about it. Clubs have been the authors of their own misfortune by allowing green fees to get so low.


The dichotomy between elite clubs charging £80 - £150 per round (or even more) and the rest charging £15 - £30 has got ridiculous. Why pay £1000 pa to join a £30 club when for £1200 pa (plus joining fee) you can join an £80 club?

[Sean_A]

Therein lies the second problem.  So many of the member clubs are cheap to play.  At those prices, the casual once a month player can get his fill without a financial commitment and have even wider choice. 

No question about it. Clubs have been the authors of their own misfortune by allowing green fees to get so low.


Why pay £1000 pa to join a £30 club when for £1200 pa (plus joining fee) you can join an £80 club?

Thats a good question Duncan. There are some courses which merit the exception to your question, but mostly the £80+ visitor fee club is the better one to join.  Look at me, Cleeve Cloud is £600 per year dues.  I don't belong, but instead belong to a place an hour further away for not much less money.  That is down to three factors...only one golf related.  But who knows, maybe one day I will make the switch...I am not known for my loyalty to golf clubs 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Rich,


if you wish to have a coffee or a beer for that matter and watch the golf at Golspie as a passing one off visitor there is no problem. No fee to pay and certainly not the vast amounts you are suggesting even for a years social membership. Infact, except for the big clubs such as Dornoch I do not know of a club up here that would be funny about non golfers using the clubhouse.


Jon

Jon,

   Clubs in the US can't get their own members to use the joint.  A big issue is the way modern society in the US dresses down, getting junior to wear slacks is borderline child abuse in the modern world.  Adults and I use the world loosely are as bad.  Do UK clubs allow jeans/denim?  Social memberships in the US are more for Tennis/Swimming IMO, with a few for prestige (Soup Clubs). 
We are at the stage where some clubs 2nd and 3rd tier need to address the money pit of the clubhouse and consider allowing well manored public folks in or close the clubhouse 5 months a year.  In the US the cowards way out of common sense change is yelling over supply.

Ben,


sorry for the slow reply. Up here in the Highlands some clubs do not allow jeans, etc but many do. Golf clubs in the UK are, or at least were very down to earth no thrills affairs. As Niall C points out many clubs lost their during the glory days of the 90's getting rid of the voluntary or part time secretary replacing them with professional managers. Turning members clubs run by the membership into businesses who turned members into clients. This in turn turns loyal members into customers who no longer feel any real bond with the club.


The product offered by most of the clubs that are struggling are over spec'ed and therefore cost more to run than the client is willing to play. I am also of the opinion that clubs who are struggling need to strip out all the expensive stuff that is not part of the core product and reduce costs.


Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am offering a rebate to any member that does not get his value out of his membership.


We offer 5 basic grades of membership, the high user is a PLATINUM  its £1125 per year, after being a member 6 years you get £150 loyalty discount to £975.....you could say its a disguised joining fee of £900 over 6 years.


GOLD is £925,(LF £845)  SILVER is £565, (LF £525)


the bottom two categories dont have REBATE....one is £310 per year then you pay £20 each round on ur main course £10 on the second course and the par course is free.



year 1 I trialled giving £25 back on every round that member did not play under 18 rounds.


year 2 I upped it to 20 rounds


this is the third year and I am thinking of taking it to 25 rounds.


To a degree it works, but some still leave or downgrade.


The conditions are; The rebate is used as long as they stay a member and they must stay in the category they are in.


£25 per round PLAT  £20 per round GOLD  £15 per round SILVER ARE THE REBATES.


It solves problems like I am going in for a knee operation so wont play for 4 months (but sir you have already played 62 times).


For the customer surely you can't have a better bargain.


It's fairly easy to count the rounds, but you must have a tee times based system.


It retained members who would have walked.


It retained members who would have downgraded.


Some did not understand the idea or did not read or were just unaware.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,


seems like a very good scheme.


Jon

[Ryan Coles]

I think Jon is correct in that Clubs lose sight of the law of diminishing returns and commit to additional expenditure that adds nothing financially or socially in return. There are examples of Clubs in my town who are doing this because they could previously afford to do this but now they're out of cash.


But.....


Cutting everything other than the course to its bare bones as Niall seems to suggest is not the answer either. Members and prospective members can be discerning and have expectations, and people do leave because standards fall, then all clubs can do is cut further which exacerbates and quickens the decline. There are clubs in my home town who've done this as well.


Balance is everything. With golf, otherwise shrewd and sensible people do crazy things. Charge a fair price for a good product. Have well trained, friendly and helpful staff (not the cheapest you can find) and unless your local market or location is horrific, you'll be ok by virtue of letting others make the above two mistakes. If you really want to be secure, give everything you have into engendering club spirit. Only the very selfish or very poor will upsticks and leave their friends.

[Niall C]

Ryan

In fairness in an earlier post I did refer to reaching a compromise rather than going straight to the nuclear option. I also think you can cut costs without cutting standards. You might reduce your offering as they say in marketing speak, but that doesn't mean a drop in standards if you get my drift. That said, I think you, Jon and I are of a mind. The solution should be cost driven.

Niall

[Ryan Coles]

Niall


Agreed it's a balance. Lots of clubs undoubtedly are lousy at procurement. I'm sure you could go into lots of British clubs, ones that are feeling the pinch and flogging greenfees via third parties and find that they're paying 40-60% over the top on simple yet expensive things like getting their bins emptied. They'll use the same fuel supplier every month rather than ring around for the best price, they'll have been mis sold and ripped of with their telephone contract / system, the list is endless.


The best people to ensure members get vfm by following basic business practices is a professional manager. Treasurers are far too interested in things being in line with the previous year and lots don't have the time or inclination to understand they're being ripped off the same as they were last year.


Golf clubs have a huge advantage in that they are freehouses. It is a buyers market in the licensed trade, yet loads don't even shop around. Or they take a stupid loan from the supplier.


Therein lies the dilemma. Jon refers to, the over commercialisation of members clubs and there is no doubt this has taken place. However, if you leave things to well intentioned amateurs, you by and large get an amateurish outcome. Pick your poison.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,


I understand and fully agree with where you are coming from with your comment 'if you leave things to well intentioned amateurs, you by and large get an amateurish outcome'. I would suggest that the problem at many clubs lies in the fact that there is no real long term direction given by the club. It is important that the professional members of staff understand what result is required of them. In clubs that are struggling it is usually because the committee is interfering to much in the method of achieving the result or the committee is allowing the professional staff to decide policy. Neither situation is a good position to be in.


Jon

[Sean_A]

I am offering a rebate to any member that does not get his value out of his membership.


We offer 5 basic grades of membership, the high user is a PLATINUM  its £1125 per year, after being a member 6 years you get £150 loyalty discount to £975.....you could say its a disguised joining fee of £900 over 6 years.


GOLD is £925,(LF £845)  SILVER is £565, (LF £525)


the bottom two categories dont have REBATE....one is £310 per year then you pay £20 each round on ur main course £10 on the second course and the par course is free.



year 1 I trialled giving £25 back on every round that member did not play under 18 rounds.


year 2 I upped it to 20 rounds


this is the third year and I am thinking of taking it to 25 rounds.


To a degree it works, but some still leave or downgrade.


The conditions are; The rebate is used as long as they stay a member and they must stay in the category they are in.


£25 per round PLAT  £20 per round GOLD  £15 per round SILVER ARE THE REBATES.


It solves problems like I am going in for a knee operation so wont play for 4 months (but sir you have already played 62 times).


For the customer surely you can't have a better bargain.


It's fairly easy to count the rounds, but you must have a tee times based system.


It retained members who would have walked.


It retained members who would have downgraded.


Some did not understand the idea or did not read or were just unaware.

Adrian


I like the idea of rebates for under-utilization.  I would have thought that would ebcourage new members, but even that hasn't seemed to do the trick.  Do you have plans to attract new members?  At Burnham we did a saavy thing by creating a separate membership for the 9 hole course.  Would you consider doing this at Players?


Ciao

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