OT - What do UK GCAers think of this new membership initiative?

[Duncan Cheslett]

I suspect this kind of thing will proliferate and be an attractive proposition for golfers, many of whom would not countenance traditional club membership.


The downside is that the core of most clubs is the membership who pays for more golf than they consume. This could end that model for good.



http://playmore.golf/become-a-member.php

[BCowan]

I'm not a UK GCAer, opps. 

[Duncan Cheslett]

That is unlikely.  Points are redeemed against golf games according to the day of the week and time of day.


This is an example;




For the avid regular golfer, full membership is still the best deal. My 100+ rounds per year at Reddish Vale work out at around £8.00  each.


Our course is rammed at weekends and Wednesdays until around 2pm. The rest of the week it is quiet.

[Niall C]

Duncan

I don't think you can really call it a membership at all. It just strikes me as a cheap golf option designed to piss of the real members but could be wrong on that.

Niall

[Bill_McBride]

Duncan

I don't think you can really call it a membership at all. It just strikes me as a cheap golf option designed to piss of the real members but could be wrong on that.

Niall

Agreed. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Seems like the clubs in this scheme are allowing an outside membership to play their courses on the cheap. If your club is asking £800 per year subs someone could join this scheme, become a member at two venues getting 100 rounds and still have change. So what is the attraction for a club such as RV?


Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

Of the 3 I've played.
 
Stockley Park is a good RTj Pay and Play. Was due to play the match play round there for £35. Was able to pick and choose my time 3 weeks in advance.
 
Selsdon is a decent Taylor(?) track. It is also P&P
 
Maylands is a decent Morrison Track where they recently played Euro Pro golf (I belive our own Padraig Dooley won there something like 6 under after 3 rounds!)  Its supposed to be a Club but they are always making special offers. 4 frineds will join for a season or two and then take up a newer offer elsewhere.
 
This looks like an attempt to capture some money off the semi serious golfer who probably will use it less htan he thinks he will. I susbscribed to a business scheme at a local course some years ago. Would have been amazing value if  I'd got 52 weekly 4 balls out of it over the year. I think I managed 6 due to the restrictions on times.
 
I bet you cant get 8 o'clock on a Saturday morning every week with it?
 

[Mark Chaplin]

Plenty of points schemes around the only difference being you can play a few different courses. Most of them are Hotel pay and plays.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

If the primary objective is to create more revenue, then something simpler might be more beneficial. I suggest limited an outside play option similar to a private course in the Philadelphia area that allows 7 " Member for a Day" plays per year. This does not offend the membership.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I bet you cant get 8 o'clock on a Saturday morning every week with it?

Actually you can.


If you buy 400 points that entitles you to 320 points at your home club. Saturday mornings in the season are generally charged at 10 points per round. So you can play 32 rounds on Saturday mornings (subject to availability).


This will cost you £1300.00


Full membership at our club allowing unlimited golf at any time costs £950.00 pa.


This is not a scheme for weekly golfers. Rather, it is a scheme for occasional golfers who want a home club and CONGU handicap without the commitment to a full membership for which they will not get good value.


It will also appeal to nomadic and society golfers who play regularly but are not currently members of a club. All evidence suggests that these golfers number hundreds of thousands around the country. Clubs need to find a way of bringing them into the fold rather than simply chasing their ever diminishing occasional green fee.

[Sean_A]

These schemes rarely appeal to me simply because so many of the courses on offer are not worth the effort to play.  It seems to me that the obvious way for vagabond golfers to kick on is to have a country membership somewhere, join The Golf Society of GB, get a county card and take advantage of deals.  For most vagabond golfers the Saturday morning game or weekly comp is not a priority or else they would have a proper membership somewhere. 

There is no way I would want my club joining a scheme like this. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Duncan how many avid once or twice a week golfers do you have 200? The problem with these schemes is the really regular players continue their membership but the large numbers of occasional players who keep a membership going suddenly realise they can keep their affiliation to the club at a much reduced price. For member clubs these schemes are just another version of the death spiral.


Avoid at all costs.

[Mike Sweeney]

Brilliant!


This is very similar to the Disney Vacation Point System that we used for 15 or so years and just sold. The key difference was - we had shared ownership of the real estate. We made money on the points when we sold, but Disney obviously made money off the fees and then our visits to the parks and restaurants but hey, we drank the juice when the kids were younger.


https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/points/

[BCowan]

Full membership at our club allowing unlimited golf at any time costs £950.00 pa.

Duncan,

   What if a member can't get a Sat morning game due to this?  Is the 950 for family membership?  Do you have individual membership, such as 475 for Individual and 950 if wife plays? 

[Adrian_Stiff]

I suspect this kind of thing will proliferate and be an attractive proposition for golfers, many of whom would not countenance traditional club membership.


The downside is that the core of most clubs is the membership who pays for more golf than they consume. This could end that model for good.



http://playmore.golf/become-a-member.php

I bought a corporate one Celtic Manor although it seems what they said on the phone they may not be able to do and so am awaiting confirmation. From a club's point of view I don't know what % of the £325 the club receive. I suspect 80% £260. It seems very scammy to me selling that you can play 100 times a year. A high user at our club is one playing 30 times and less than 1% play 100 times. Certainly if you have a high number of 100 times a yearer's you are going to be in trouble financially if you only charge £850. The key flaws are that, it destroys your price integrity, if you can use 3 credits to play RV then you are underlying yourself as a TENPOUNDGOLFCOURSE and not the great course it is, so to me it's the sort of thing a Charlie would do not an experienced golf course operator.


It is possible it can work for a club, but you need to price your units/gfee properly.  From PlayMore's point of view they want the best things to say to sell the product but those things do demolish the quality product IMO and for some people they will have a negative opinion of RV because they see low price equals rubbish.


The danger is also you pickle your own membership and some of your happy members become unhappy or become happy to hop into the new product  where financially the club get less money. As always the key is 'not to make the mix'. You need to really think about infringing your price points and not create back doors to PLAYMOREGOLF cheaper.....WHICH EXACTLY is what the label what you to do or think.


If I was doing this I would not want to dip below 10 points at the cheapest time/pricepoint for our main course.

[Thomas Dai]

Membership schemes, a minefield these days.

Just give me nice simple private members golf near where I live, one fee level, play and use the practice facilities and clubhouse went I want....a place to play, meet mates and get away from the hussle and bussle that is modern life. Would I pay more than the current annual fee to keep things like this? Absolutely, and I know others who feel the same, and if/when this is no longer available I'll probably give the game up, which for someone who's played since he was a wee lad will be a pretty sad day. 😢
Atb

[Ryan Coles]

Sounds like hell. People who obsess about the price of everything and understand the value of nothing are not worth having in your Club.


Who wants to join a tee time factory full of point counters?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Membership schemes, a minefield these days.

Just give me nice simple private members golf near where I live, one fee level, play and use the practice facilities and clubhouse went I want....a place to play, meet mates and get away from the hussle and bussle that is modern life. Would I pay more than the current annual fee to keep things like this? Absolutely, and I know others who feel the same, and if/when this is no longer available I'll probably give the game up, which for someone who's played since he was a wee lad will be a pretty sad day. 😢
Atb

Something I have studied since 1975 when John Day explained to me 'the future of golf memberships'. Your situation Thomas exists at many places still but it is fading. Anyone who follows my posts will know I said what would happen 10 years ago, got shot down by a few of the regular snipers but backed by quite a few.


It will get worse, if you feel the scenario you want is the utopia.


The problem as it was 10-20 years ago is that now more 'averaged income' people play golf as opposed the 'rich people' those averaged 'incomed' people have to be more frugal with their incomes. If they join a club for £800 and play 20 times they don't perceive it as value and sometimes/often don't rejoin. Those that play 60 times and pay £800 don't see that they are playing to cheaply.


There is unit cost to every round that is played. This is your PPR. If it costs £700,000 to run the gaff then if you do 35,000 rounds at £20 its break even. If you know your PPR and sell under that price you will enter death spiral.


The real fairness should be based on 20 to 30 rounds of the green fee price, based on the summer price (if it is different weekday/weekend you add it together and divide by 2) equalling a full membership. You can look at discounting for members guests, tour operators, quieter times, dropping 25% is acceptable, dropping 50% is suicidal.


We have a lot more golfers than in 1970 or 1980 perhaps even 1990 and 2000 but a lot of those golfers are not playing 20 times a year so to embrace those golfers to the club you need to structure an entirely different scenario. The real skill is the price point.


The fair way really is to pay a fee to join the club and then a user fee per round. The people that play a lot won't like that though.

[Thomas Dai]

I don't actually disagree with you Adrian that my little utopia is fading, just that it's fading quicker than I'd like and that I'd prefer it to not fade at all if possible, unlikely as this may be.....fighting against the tide and all that!


As to the economic/models that you have consistently highlighted, I understand and actually agree with them and if I were in the golf course 'business' rather than merely a punter playing for essentially lesiure and recreation purposes (with a GCA interest naturally!) they'd be the kind of models that I'd likely be following.


Perhaps the (im)famous report from a few decades ago arguing for more courses has come home to really haunt the long term historical traditions of the game. Bit surprising in some ways as UK population has risen considerably in roughly the same period. Supply and demand, availability, price etc.


In another thread that's currently running herein I use the phrase 'Community based not commercially based' and whilst they are inter-related there is something rather nice and unique about the atmosphere within and surrounding traditional private members clubs in comparison to 'commercial clubs' that is attractive, to some at least.


Some actively like marmite, some can tolerate it, some really dislike it.


Atb

[Rich Goodale]

Thomas


I feel your pain, but ....


...I struggle to think of any club I know, in GBI or the USA, which is not tilting towards Commercially Based rather than Community Based.  And even those clubs who claim to maintain a Community ethos see Commercial activity as a way to fund an ethos which is not necessarily consonant with the aspirations of their Community.


I also think that most members of local communities would love to be able to visit their golf clubs, enjoy the food and drink and the views that most clubhouses have.  Why should they be bannned when the clubs need the revenue they would bring?  Is it just snobbery, or something else that I cannot understand?


Rich

[Adrian_Stiff]

I wish it was not like it too.


We now live in a world where everything can be cross checked.


I do it myself though if I want to buy the new Rolling Stones CD I will buy it for the cheapest price by 1p on ebay or amazon.


Lowest price wins.


:O(

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas


I feel your pain, but ....


...I struggle to think of any club I know, in GBI or the USA, which is not tilting towards Commercially Based rather than Community Based.  And even those clubs who claim to maintain a Community ethos see Commercial activity as a way to fund an ethos which is not necessarily consonant with the aspirations of their Community.


I also think that most members of local communities would love to be able to visit their golf clubs, enjoy the food and drink and the views that most clubhouses have.  Why should they be bannned when the clubs need the revenue they would bring?  Is it just snobbery, or something else that I cannot understand?


Rich

Rich,


there are still many examples of traditional members clubs up here though it is possible as much to do with situation they find themselves in as it is with desire to be so. Still, many of the clubs that ran towards the glittering pot are now wishing perhaps they had stayed with the tried and tested.


Jon

[David_Tepper]

"I also think that most members of local communities would love to be able to visit their golf clubs, enjoy the food and drink and the views that most clubhouses have.  Why should they be bannned when the clubs need the revenue they would bring?  Is it just snobbery, or something else that I cannot understand?"

Rich G. -

My understanding is most golf clubs in the Highlands do offer social memberships for a very nominal fee to those non-golfing members of the community who wish to dine & drink and enjoy the comforts of the clubhouse. I believe opening the food & beverage service to the general public may cause some licensing issues. It may also antagonize the proprietors of the local restaurants, pubs and cafes.

DT

[Rich Goodale]

Dave


You need to get out more.


All courses in the Highlands (and elsewhere in Scotland, and the rest of GBI) that I know of will grant temporary membership for anybody playing the course (and their families).  But, if you are visiting (say) Dornoch and you are not golfing that day, you and your family will have to pay a green fee if you want to enter the clubhouse.  Or, let's say you are visiting Dornoch and/orGolspie or Brora or Tain and you do not want to play golf, but would like to enjoy the views and camaraderie of any of those clubs, you will have to purchase a social membership which will require paper work and cost £50-100 for the privilege, even if you are going to Orkney the next day and never coming back.


Some clubs I have visited recently (e.g. Pitreavie and Pennard) WELCOME visitors who just want to have lunch or a cup of tea or even a pint or two and advertise it on their entrances.  Why do other clubs make customers jump through hoops to allow them to give them their custom?  Idiocy and/or pomposity are the only words I can think of.


Rich

[Mark Pavy]

Won't work. Do not sign up to schemes. Get off your arses and run your Golf Club properly. If your GM doesn't play golf, sack him/her.