Did Robert Trent Jones Senior ever get "it" done, from start to finish?

[BCowan]

Going to replay the RTJ at Treetops this summer, not sure how much involved he was with it. Enjoyed it when I was 18, looking forward to seeing what I think of it now.  It helps when you have fantastic land.  The Heather at Boyne has repetitious par 3's.  Played US AM qualifier there 1 or 2 times.   

[Bob Montle]

I play RTJ’s Tanglewood NC course fairly frequently because it is inexpensive and because I live only a mile away.  For me, an aging 18 handicapper, it is boring.   
Shouldn’t a measure of greatness for a course (and architech) be how easy or difficult it is to figure out how to score?  I probably wouldn’t understand TOC after a dozen rounds, but it only took two rounds to decipher Tanglewood.   At least it did for a duffer like me.

The only Doak course I have played is Dismal Red.  No single strategy works on all the holes there.  I would enjoy playing it over and over to discover the best ways (FOR ME) to play each hole.

Tanglewood  is penal if you are wild and has about fifty* sand bunkers surrounding each green.  For a duffer the strategy is simple, especially since the greens require an aerial approach. 
All one must do is play safe off the tee, lay up short of the greenfront bunkers and chip as close as possible for a  par putt or an easy bogey.  So a duffer can score – but it is still boring.  If Tanglewood is a decent example of an RTJ course than I am not impressed.

Am I “out of bounds” here?  Is the ability to “solve” a course a decent measuring stick for rating it?



*Possibly exaggerated

[MCirba]

Nearly in my back yard. I had heard that about it. I also heard that Rocherster's Durand-Eastman, in its original form (before the local authoritays changed it to put in ... what else? ... a road) was spectacular.

Ron,

I've heard much the same about Durand-Eastman and being a Muni Rat I've been wanting to get up there for some time now.   I'll give you a shout when I'm in the area next.

As far as Green Lakes State Park, I played it once back in high school so I can't vouch for it's present day condition or architectural integrity.   However, the kids and grandkids are planning a camping trip there in August so I'm likely to play it again now 40-plus years later.

[mark chalfant]

Shady  Oaks,  Fort  Worth


Nice  routing with great variety  of holes  over hilly terrain.  Several wonderful greens , often large, with nice interior contours.


Fornt nine is especially strong:  fifth  a superb long  par three  and  long holes at  six  and number     eight:   

[Tim Leahy]

I have always enjoyed Valencia CC in Socal. Not spectacular but good start to finish and loved the greens.

[Ronald Montesano]

Bob, I went to Wake Forest and played Tanglewood west more than any other course in the area (should have caddied at Old Town--what was I thinking!?!?)


You hit it on the head. That was a style that RTJSR employed for a good while, because professional golfers told architects that was the best way to defend par. It is so boring and drives golfers away from the game. If I played that course, I would always move up a deck or two, to ensure an ability to reach greens in regulation.


RTJSR has other courses that don't demand such nonsense, but he never embraced the Scottish game (if he even knew what it was) and its multiple options.

Tanglewood  is penal if you are wild and has about fifty* sand bunkers surrounding each green.  For a duffer the strategy is simple, especially since the greens require an aerial approach. 
All one must do is play safe off the tee, lay up short of the greenfront bunkers and chip as close as possible for a  par putt or an easy bogey.  So a duffer can score – but it is still boring.  If Tanglewood is a decent example of an RTJ course than I am not impressed.

Am I “out of bounds” here?  Is the ability to “solve” a course a decent measuring stick for rating it?

*Possibly exaggerated

[Ed Homsey]

Re:  reference to the Durand-Eastman course in Rochester.  The following provides an excellent history of the course:
http://www.durandeastmangolfclub.org/files/Historical_Info/course3.html

As Ron indicates, it was a terrific golf course up through the 1960s.  The changes to the course had to do with creating a 9-hole front and 9-hole back that conforms to the division created by the natural terrain.  Before, you played 10 holes on the "front", and crossed the road to play the 8-hole "back".  Changes internal to each nine resulted in the butchering of the course, in my opinion.  There remains some individual holes that capture your attention.

From my reading of the Durand history, sounds like RTJ's work there was a redesign.

[Mark_Fine]

Years ago I had long discussion with Geoff Shackelford about RTJ.  One of the things we talked about were “great tests of golf” vs “great golf courses”.  I have played some (about 35) but not a lot of RTJ courses relative to the 400+ that he designed.  I find them to mostly be good to great tests of golf but only few inspire me to where I would call them “great golf courses”.  He wanted you to use all the clubs in your bag but that doesn’t always equate to a great golf course.  I think Mauna Kea was ground breaking (literally) and Valderrama with its “bunkers in the sky” is unique.  I enjoy Peachtree (one of those great tests of golf) and it has a bit of an Augusta National like feel playing in an arboretum.  Valencia is another great test of golf (a shame about the highway).  RTJ did a ton of golf courses (I consider him in many ways similar to Donald Ross from a businessman perspective) and I probably need to see more than I have of his designs to draw a stronger conclusion. 

[Terry Lavin]

Shady  Oaks,  Fort  Worth


Nice  routing with great variety  of holes  over hilly terrain.  Several wonderful greens , often large, with nice interior contours.


Fornt nine is especially strong:  fifth  a superb long  par three  and  long holes at  six  and number     eight:   

I'll second that emotion.

[Rich Goodale]

Shady  Oaks,  Fort  Worth


Nice  routing with great variety  of holes  over hilly terrain.  Several wonderful greens , often large, with nice interior contours.


Fornt nine is especially strong:  fifth  a superb long  par three  and  long holes at  six  and number     eight:   

I'll second that emotion.

Nobody can overesimate the brilliance of Smokey Robinson.  Anon....

[Ronald Montesano]

Might they go broke if they did underestimate William Robinson Jr.'s brilliance?

I'll second that emotion.

Nobody can overesimate the brilliance of Smokey Robinson.  Anon....

[Frank M]

I have only played a handful RTJ courses, but London Hunt in Canada is pretty good start to finish. It's been renovated by Rees, but still pretty good start to finish. Same with Duke, which I like. I also like Cornell and Crag Burn.