[Jonathan Mallard]

Brickshire abuts RNK.


Undisclosed price.


http://richmondbizsense.com/2017/04/18/threesome-of-local-golf-courses-on-the-market/

[Scott Weersing]

So how much would you offer to buy Royal New Kent? Would 1.5 million be too low an offer?


I am thinking that they are selling because they have forecasted some large capital improvements coming in the next five years like a new irrigation system. They one they have could be 20 years old, as the course was built in 1995-6.


I also thinking or speculating that they need some cash and are selling some of their assets to fund improvements at other courses.


Traditional golf could also be moving to be more of a management company, like Kemper Sports, instead of a golf course owner.


If I had the money, I would buy RNK and then have Kemper Sports run it.

[Carl Rogers]

Even if I had the $$ to buy RNK, wife would have me committed.

I think these courses represent a bad bad misunderstanding of the local or even regional marketplace.  Nobody is going to roll up to the course in their stretch limo with their chauffer, valet & caddy; drop $300 on a round and then another $100 in the clubhouse.

[Mike_Young]

!.5 is probably way too much.  These only seel because they are not making it and if they paid 5 mill for such then either the eqity partners are ready for a loss or the bank is going to be operating such until they decide to take the hit.  And trust me most golf course sin America cannot replace irrigation every 20 years...that is something supts are taught in schools funded by grants from irrigation companies.   You might could get all three for 1.2 to 1.5 mill.  Tear down the clubhouses and they might bring more....

[Dale_McCallon]

Carl,

I don't think of these courses as $300, valet, and limo courses.  I played them a few times on my company dime and I can assure they wouldn't have reimbursed me at those rates.

I played Brickshire once; only thing I remember was the 18th hole.  I know I'm in the minority, but I preferred Stonehouse over RNK.

Wasn't Rees Jones building a residential course with a vineyard in that area?

[SB]

Everyone's ability to speculate at things that they know absolutely nothing about truly boggles the mind.  Without looking at the financials, how are you in ANY position to guess at the price of the golf course or why they are selling.  Of course, never mind that the news article states why they are selling.      Or the capital improvements required, or if it was a "bad understanding of the market".  People sell golf courses all the time, and not always because they are in trouble. 


Let's look at some actual facts, shall we?  Williamsburg is a major destination tourism market.  It ain't Madison, Georgia.  Two of these three are arguably the best golf courses in the market, including the big resorts.  Rack rates are pushing $100 in season.  Let's look at comps, shall we?  The last golf course sold in Williamsburg were the two at Kingsmill for $30 million dollars.  Ford's Colony sold in a bulk transaction which averaged over $7M a property, the real allocation isn't public knowledge, but since they bought it at the bottom for around $7M, I'm guessing it's north of that.


So exactly what is it that brings you to believe that you can buy 3 of the best golf courses in this market for $1.2M TOTAL without ever having been there?  Do you have any idea WHO the equity partners are or WHO the bank is?   Are you trying to talk down the price for a specific reason? 


This place is like a bunch of women gossiping.  Except that gossiping women are occasionally right.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Wasn't Rees Jones building a residential course with a vineyard in that area?

http://www.viniterragolf.com/


Now a daily ($40) fee course.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Everyone's ability to speculate at things that they know absolutely nothing about truly boggles the mind.  Without looking at the financials, how are you in ANY position to guess at the price of the golf course or why they are selling.  Of course, never mind that the news article states why they are selling.      Or the capital improvements required, or if it was a "bad understanding of the market".  People sell golf courses all the time, and not always because they are in trouble. 


Let's look at some actual facts, shall we?  Williamsburg is a major destination tourism market.  It ain't Madison, Georgia.  Two of these three are arguably the best golf courses in the market, including the big resorts.  Rack rates are pushing $100 in season.  Let's look at comps, shall we?  The last golf course sold in Williamsburg were the two at Kingsmill for $30 million dollars.  Ford's Colony sold in a bulk transaction which averaged over $7M a property, the real allocation isn't public knowledge, but since they bought it at the bottom for around $7M, I'm guessing it's north of that.


So exactly what is it that brings you to believe that you can buy 3 of the best golf courses in this market for $1.2M TOTAL without ever having been there?  Do you have any idea WHO the equity partners are or WHO the bank is?   Are you trying to talk down the price for a specific reason? 


This place is like a bunch of women gossiping.  Except that gossiping women are occasionally right.

Ford's Colony filed for bankruptcy protection.

[SB]

Everyone's ability to speculate at things that they know absolutely nothing about truly boggles the mind.  Without looking at the financials, how are you in ANY position to guess at the price of the golf course or why they are selling.  Of course, never mind that the news article states why they are selling.      Or the capital improvements required, or if it was a "bad understanding of the market".  People sell golf courses all the time, and not always because they are in trouble. 


Let's look at some actual facts, shall we?  Williamsburg is a major destination tourism market.  It ain't Madison, Georgia.  Two of these three are arguably the best golf courses in the market, including the big resorts.  Rack rates are pushing $100 in season.  Let's look at comps, shall we?  The last golf course sold in Williamsburg were the two at Kingsmill for $30 million dollars.  Ford's Colony sold in a bulk transaction which averaged over $7M a property, the real allocation isn't public knowledge, but since they bought it at the bottom for around $7M, I'm guessing it's north of that.


So exactly what is it that brings you to believe that you can buy 3 of the best golf courses in this market for $1.2M TOTAL without ever having been there?  Do you have any idea WHO the equity partners are or WHO the bank is?   Are you trying to talk down the price for a specific reason? 


This place is like a bunch of women gossiping.  Except that gossiping women are occasionally right.

Ford's Colony filed for bankruptcy protection.

In 2010.

[Carl Rogers]

Carl,

I don't think of these courses as $300, valet, and limo courses.  I played them a few times on my company dime and I can assure they wouldn't have reimbursed me at those rates.

I played Brickshire once; only thing I remember was the 18th hole.  I know I'm in the minority, but I preferred Stonehouse over RNK.

Wasn't Rees Jones building a residential course with a vineyard in that area?

It is just that the courses are ultra high maintenance and the clubhouses are preposterously over built.

[Mike_Young]

[quote author=SBusch link=topic=64394.msg1535223#msg1535223 date=1492801592

So exactly what is it that brings you to believe that you can buy 3 of the best golf courses in this market for $1.2M TOTAL without ever having been there?  Do you have any idea WHO the equity partners are or WHO the bank is?   Are you trying to talk down the price for a specific reason? 


This place is like a bunch of women gossiping.  Except that gossiping women are occasionally right.


SBusch,
I've been there.  My bet is it is an interesting sale.  And don't sell Madison , Ga short....

[Carl Rogers]

I understand that some comments above are directed toward me and that is OK.


When a course has to pass out coupons in the newspaper, hands out sleeves of Pinnacles, no water in the coolers after 2PM, no bunker maintenace, and is empy on a Saturday afternoon, you know the end is near.  You do not need any special inside information.

[JESII]

SBusch,


How much weight would you put on the relative quality of the golf course architecture in Richmond/Williamsburg VA in the potential sale of a property? Or maybe the entire mid-Atlantic region...


This is beyond my expertise, but you seem quite knowledgeable in the arena. Is the actual architecture worth more than 10% of the calculation?

[JESII]

FWIW, RNK is priceless to me. Haven't yet seen a course quite like it.

[Carl Rogers]

RNK is an exceptional course, except for:
1. the 11 th green is unplayable
2. the 12th hole routing from holes 11 to 13 is very funky-awkward
3. the 17th & 18th holes are very much out of character

[SB]

SBusch,


How much weight would you put on the relative quality of the golf course architecture in Richmond/Williamsburg VA in the potential sale of a property? Or maybe the entire mid-Atlantic region...


This is beyond my expertise, but you seem quite knowledgeable in the arena. Is the actual architecture worth more than 10% of the calculation?

Are you referring to the quality of courses in the area vs. the quality in, say, Boston?  I'd say it's irrelevant.  What's more important is how it stacks up against other courses in the market since golfers staying overnight in Williamsburg can't really drive to New Jersey for the day.  The value of the course is tied relative to the local market.  So, if you're a very average course in an expensive market, the value will be much higher than a really good design in a cheap market. 


If the comparison is a terrible design vs. a great design, then I'd say definitely more than 10%.  The design quality should theoretically translate into higher green fees = higher cash flow = higher sales price.  There's obviously a lot of other factors that go into it, but Myrtle Beach is a good example, where everyone has pretty much the same location and amenities, so course quality really is a big factor.  It's been a while since I've seen any numbers there, but good courses used to be worth multiples of the bad ones.  In most other markets, there's so many different variables that it's hard to say exactly how much people value design compared to other factors.

[SB]

I understand that some comments above are directed toward me and that is OK.


When a course has to pass out coupons in the newspaper, hands out sleeves of Pinnacles, no water in the coolers after 2PM, no bunker maintenace, and is empy on a Saturday afternoon, you know the end is near.  You do not need any special inside information.

You may be absolutely right and they could be closing tomorrow.  Or you may have caught them on a bad day, a time when they were testing some things out, or maybe a key person on their staff had a heart attack (which happened to me last week and we were a mess for a couple days).  Either way, stating their imminent failure as a fact is not appropriate without knowing the facts.  And then it would probably be illegal. 

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