Is it a given that Augusta National’s fairway bunkering is indifferent?

[Ran Morrissett]

Yes, yes, yes, the course enjoys great topography (a supremely routed hole like 13 doesn't need a boost from man) and terrific greens (14 requires no help back in the fairway). I am a big fan of the depth and placement of the bunkers on 1 and 5 also but overall, that's a low hit rate.

Bunkers on the outside of doglegs (2, 18), no central hazards of significance (10 looks good but so what), bunkers on the sides of fairways that add no strategic value (3, 8 ) and several fairways that beg for bunkers instead of trees (e.g. 7, 11, 15, 17). Put another way, who wouldn’t drool to see someone approach 11 and/or 15 ~220 yards out from sand?

I make this post in part because I find it unappealing and monotonous to listen to television commentary on an annual basis that never criticizes a course, especially one that has changed so much in the past 20 years. I hugely appreciate the original design's minimalistic intent and I understand why it has evolved. It is just I think the fairway bunkering is feeble compared to the other standout design elements.

Am I alone?

[John Cowden]

Ran, when confronted with a beautiful woman with oversized ankles, my recommendation is to ignore them.  Sophia Loren had oversized ankles but does that detract from her beauty?   Not for me, not in any way whatsoever.  I don't even think about them. 

[JESII]

Ran,


I think your greater point is something different so maybe we tackle that!?!  But if you truly want to discuss bunkering, didn't John Low say something about a bunker being best suited exactly where you would like your ball to be?


That kind of addresses the strategic value of 3 and 8, no?


Center bunker on 11? Absolutely!  None of your other three though, for me.  Wider playing corridor, sure...just can't see where a bunker in the fairway could add anything to those greens.

[Mike_Young]

What you describe is why I say Peachtree is the better in Ga.

[Peter Pallotta]

You waited patiently these many years until Pat M no longer posted, and then you struck!   
To my untrained eye the bunker placements have always looked ideal; and Bogey H lists Augusta as his favourite amongst the very best.
But recently, a poster who some might say understands gca quite a bit better than me, raised the notion that many of the holes there are not as strategically bunkered as conventional wisdom claims them to be.
So, to answer your question: no, you are not alone - and indeed I think you might have a couple of heavyweights in your corner.
But, if you get an email from Pat M, I suggest you ignore it...

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike
I have never been to Peachtree.
From above Peachtree has even fewer fairway bunkered holes than Augusta (3? vs. 5?)
How does that make those skinnier fairways more strategic?
I doubt the greens or routing are as good, or any hole near as good as 13.
How does that make Peachtree better?


I heard Ran say how much better Augusta could be in the best architectural hands (different priority from The Masters).
The treehouse has complained about the pines constraining the strategy a yard at a time and the length of the ball wreaking havoc with playability (more yardage needed).
I also heard Ran say that fairway bunkering can be overrated, especially when compared to a modern golf course with fairway bunkers as far as the eye can see.


Cheers

[mike_beene]

Where does this type of thought leave Olympic Lake?

[Matthew Rose]

I suppose since it is considered perhaps the quintessential "second shot" golf course that the fairway bunkering is something of an afterthought there. I don't think it needs a whole lot really. I would probably move the bunker on #2 back to the inside of the dogleg; I think it worked better as an obstacle for player seeking an aggressive line, especially to the back right Sunday pin.


The bunkering complex on #3 has never made much sense to me, particularly the style. That's always been the most out of character looking thing on the whole course to me.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ran,


in my opinion they need to look at Dr. Mac's original bunkering scheme (21 if I recall correctly) and recreate it on the current course. In addition the bunkers just seem to get a little bigger each year to the point where many of the greenside bunkering is out of proportion to the greens. Shrinking them back to the original scale would balance the aesthetics greatly.


Getting rid of the semi would also be a big improvement.


Jon

[Niall C]

Jon


I wonder if getting rid of the semi, particularly on a hole like 13 might just lead to more of a grip it and rip it approach. Maybe I'm wrong but I sensed that this year a few more players tried to hit more controlled shots, 3 woods even, of that tee to make sure they were on the short stuff for their approach.


Niall

[Matt MacIver]

In general I think the bunkers are fine.  Justin drove into the #2 fairway bunker on Sunday; Sergio deftly avoided the green side bunker on #10 (but had to contend with some sort of newly planted shrub behind the bunker - what was THAT doing there?!).  I loved Sergio's recovery shot on 11 using the green side hill to funnel it to the front edge - no bunker needed there.  Does the left side fairway bunker on #18 induce people to hit 3W and/or tug it way right?  If so then that bunker is probably ok too. 


I love centerline bunkers but what's on-ground at ANGC is mostly ok.  Now, about that width...

[Mike Hendren]

Mike Young, you are among my all time favorites, but my opinion is that Peachtree GC can't carry Augusta National's athletic supporter.   I have one a 10 and the other a 7.   In ten plays it's 10-0 for me. 

Respectfully,

Bogey

[Ed Brzezowski]

Spent some time this weekend emailing back and forth with a noted architect. His point was that they are " the most uninspired bunkers in golf". 

Thoughts?

[Garland Bayley]

Spent some time this weekend emailing back and forth with a noted architect. His point was that they are " the most uninspired bunkers in golf". 

Thoughts?

A bit of hyperbole of course, but when it comes to the highly known courses such as Open rotas, his point gains traction.

[Matthew Essig]

Jon


I wonder if getting rid of the semi, particularly on a hole like 13 might just lead to more of a grip it and rip it approach. Maybe I'm wrong but I sensed that this year a few more players tried to hit more controlled shots, 3 woods even, of that tee to make sure they were on the short stuff for their approach.


Niall

If there was ONE hole I wish the second cut would get eliminated, it would be 14. That hole has become more of a nothing hole, almost like a connector between 13 and 15, in the eyes of the general public. It has so much potential, and we on this site know it. There were several drives on Sunday that leaked right and rolled down into the second cut. The second cut protects the drives from rolling down into the trees. It would be so much more interesting to see players be more scared of that tee shot. Maybe they lay up with a 3 wood. Then a long iron into that hole is a tough, scary shot. How I wish the second cut was gone there...


To relate this more to the topic, as a result, I would be okay if the Mac bunker on 14 is not reintroduced.

[Matthew Essig]

I would love to see those dumb trees that were put in right of 11 replaced with a bunker or two. It doesn't change the strategy/improve the strategy of the hole, but it greatly improves the hole for spectators at least.

[Ben Stephens]

Isnt the fairway bunkers on 1 and 5 done by Fazio? which is why they are different to the Maxwell bunkers which have evolved to sharp edged roundish bunkers

[Mike_Young]

Mike N and Mike H,

To each his own but I know a lot of guys who play both and would agree with me but naturally there ate two camps here. 
We have to admit there is a certain amount of weiner measuring and tee shirt gathering at ANGC that just can't be done anywhere else but that is an intangible.  If Peachtree were told to host the Masters next year and built in the proper tees, I feel the test would be better.  Both courses thrive on short grass for difficulty and if it were mowed out for a Masters it would be a completely different animal just as if ANGC were to have two inch rough around the greens it would be much easier.

Mike N, I'm not talking about the number or style of the bunkers at either course.  I think I would say I'm talking more about their use.  During the tournament my opinion is that the bunkers on 1, 5, 8 and 18 are located more for forcing one to "turn" the shot that to gain advantage via carry.  I don't like that but that's me. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Mike
It looks to me like there is more turning/forcing at Peachtree based on terrain, fairway widths and trees.
The bunkers appear to have less of an impact because there are so few at both courses.
Cheers

[Mike Hendren]

Disclosure:  I've played Peachtree twice and only patronized Augusta National on a total of 7 days. 

Mike, I suspect those who prefer Peachtree are very good players such as yourself.  In my opinion it lacks the short game interest of ANGC.  Peachtree opens with a bang on the first three holes, but then settles down considerably.  Peachtree's 1st green is the only one I recall being on par with the likes of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 13th and 14th at ANGC.  I was most surprised at the aerial emphasis at Peachtree - few, if any opportunities for running approaches which are available in abundance at Augusta for us mere mortals who can't nip a wedge off such tight turf. 

If forced to name the two best one, two and three shotters on either course, Augusta sweeps the gold and silver medals:  the 13th and 8th, the 4th and 12th and the 5th and 10th in my book.  The 2nd at Peachtree is the only bronze medal winner for that course I can come up with and that's primarily because I'm not a fan of the 15th at Augusta.

In a nutshell, Augusta feels broad-shouldered while Peachtree feels muscular.  The latter requires work while the former would likely feel fun and thrilling.

Cheers.

[Mike_Young]

Thank you Mike
It looks to me like there is more turning/forcing at Peachtree based on terrain, fairway widths and trees.
The bunkers appear to have less of an impact because there are so few at both courses.
Cheers

Let me know sometime when you are in ATL and will see if we can "discuss" it more "closely". 

Michael H,
Hmmmmmm...I don't claim to be a good player but I think it has plenty of short game and I think it holds up on shot values also...but thats just me...

[Jason Topp]

Ran:

I disagree with your view that the bunkers on 8 and 3 are without merit.  8 is exactly where I suspect a player would hit the ball if trying to reach the green in 2 and 3 is about where one would lay up for many pins.   

The bunkers on 18 exist because players employed a strategy of hitting their tee shots far left in order to avoid the trouble on the right.  Watching old Masters highlights shows how experienced players under pressure regularly chose such an approach.

I like the idea of removing trees and adding bunkers to the right on 11, thereby creating some temptation rather than simply a brutally difficult hole.  15 also seems like a very strange setup to me the way it exists today.  I suspect that they chose trees because they did not really have an option to significantly lengthen a hole that was regularly reached with irons in the 60's.

7 is an interesting case.  I like the idea of having one narrow hole but would prefer one that provided more of a choice between a layup and a driver with significant consequences for either choice.

 Augusta was built using a light touch approach to bunkers and my preference would be to honor that approach to the extent it is possible to do so while creating strategic interest and playability for all.  My biggest criticism of the course as it exists today is that the par fours have very little variation in length, with 3 being the lone example of a short par 4.  I would like to see some 400 yard holes and some flat 500 yard holes sprinkled into the mix - I would shorten 7 and lengthen 5, for example.   

[Matthew Petersen]

I like the idea of removing trees and adding bunkers to the right on 11, thereby creating some temptation rather than simply a brutally difficult hole.  15 also seems like a very strange setup to me the way it exists today.  I suspect that they chose trees because they did not really have an option to significantly lengthen a hole that was regularly reached with irons in the 60's.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a picture to show exactly where the Bobby Jones-built centerline bunker on 11 was, but my impression has always been that it served this purpose somewhat. Take out the trees they added down the right in 03 or 04 and put a bunker on that line (and eliminate the second cut) and the player would have the option of trying to play right of that for a better angle, but then they're risking either being in the bunker or in the trees that have more or less always been there.

[Mike_Young]

Spent some time this weekend emailing back and forth with a noted architect. His point was that they are " the most uninspired bunkers in golf". 

Thoughts?

I thought you were discussing with two noted architects..but one was a major dork....

[jeffwarne]

Yes, yes, yes, the course enjoys great topography (a supremely routed hole like 13 doesn't need a boost from man) and terrific greens (14 requires no help back in the fairway). I am a big fan of the depth and placement of the bunkers on 1 and 5 also but overall, that's a low hit rate.

Bunkers on the outside of doglegs (2, 18), no central hazards of significance (10 looks good but so what), bunkers on the sides of fairways that add no strategic value (3, 8 ) and several fairways that beg for bunkers instead of trees (e.g. 7, 11, 15, 17). Put another way, who wouldn’t drool to see someone approach 11 and/or 15 ~220 yards out from sand?


Am I alone?

ANGC has fairway bunkering on ONE side on 6 out of 14 driving holes. so 6 out of potentially 28 sides in the bunker left-bunker right world.
10 is simple eye candy left over from a greenside bunker.
This restraint, coupled with the naturally routed landforms are exactly what makes it NOT indifferent-as opposed to nearly all other parkland championship courses.
and they are ANYTHING but indifferent if you're in one


Of those holes, #1 is strategic as skirting or carrying the bunker is an angle and length advantage(see Sergio Sunday)
#2-less so
#3 yes as those bunkers are exactly where you'd like to be which creates choices
#5 less so
#8 very much so as flirting , skirting or carrying it creates a huge angle advantage
#18 less so-a "Jack proof" reaction to him busting it into the practice area