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Matt_Cohn

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Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« on: April 08, 2017, 11:52:16 PM »
The Jackson Kahn team (Scottsdale National's new course, MPCC Dunes renovation, others) posted some interesting renderings on their Instagram page this morning. Thoughts?









Peter Pallotta

Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 12:05:54 AM »
I wonder who will identify a significant difference in those before and after photos: those who know more than I do about golf course design, or those who know even less?

« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 12:10:58 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 12:17:29 AM »
The only thing that stands out as "significant" is how the 12th green rolls off just left of the bunker. That would make that line more intimidating from the tee. I'm not smart enough to know if that would be or good or bad, however.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 03:03:03 AM »

Matt,


I find it kind of ironic that ANGC is known for its manicured, clean cut bunker edges and this has been copied by countless other clubs. Now Jackson Kahn is suggesting they go the opposite way not only losing the clean cut but going from trend setter to following this latest and somewhat jaded fad for 'frilly'.


Jon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 03:48:07 AM »
I find it ironic we're talking about the bunkers at Augusta.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2017, 06:42:36 AM »

I find it ironic we're talking about the bunkers at Augusta.


Do embellish Sven.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2017, 07:22:01 AM »
My personal, visual thing: I don't believe that those bunkers fit the hyper-green Augusta National of 2017. Tawny and ochre would better surround those sand scrapes. If ANGC desires green, it has found the perfect bunker scheme.
Coming in 2024
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~Maybe some more!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2017, 07:37:55 AM »
More design by photoshop.

Blake Conant

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2017, 08:53:15 AM »
It is ironic, Sven.  Addressing the bunker style at Augusta is pretty low priority for actually making the golf course better.  And addressing it with their prescribed style is pretty weird. 


Granted, I realize they're just having fun and messing around, but it does give some insight into their methods and their line of thinking. 

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2017, 09:14:17 AM »
Utterly terrible.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2017, 09:22:24 AM »
Sad that anyone would consider that to be "design"

John Kirk

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2017, 10:54:07 AM »
Just an opinion.

The renderings don't look better to me.  They look contrived, and I've grown fond of the clean bunker lines at Augusta National.  Furthermore, they would add maintenance to what I am sure is already a significant budget.

The little false front suggested on #12 is also unnecessary.  #12 is already a difficult short hole, and rather unique in that category for its flattish green.  In addition, the way the front bunker on #12 is depicted, wouldn't the bottom be filled with water some of the time?

The course has changed dramatically over the years, to add difficulty and playability for its members and tournament players.  For me, the current course aesthetics are excellent.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2017, 10:58:44 AM »
Utterly terrible.


I don't think it's terrible at all. The photos are beautifully rendered and IF (that's a big if) the bunkers could be constructed exactly as sketched then they might be quite pleasing to the eye.


It's just depressing that frilly bunkers as a design solution seems to be ubiquitous and completely out of control.


Really, golf design is more about looks and trends and less about variety and strategy than it has ever been... Which is pity because it's going to end up dragging down those that can do both in the end.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 12:16:05 PM »

I find it ironic we're talking about the bunkers at Augusta.


Do embellish Sven.


ANGC was noted for the relatively low number of bunkers that were included in the original design.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2017, 12:32:26 PM »
Y'all are a tough bunch. I don't mind the bunker-style change. There isn't really a style that looks great because bunkers just feel unnatural in the setting. So either style is "eh, whatever" to me. However, I hate the false edge/dip added to 12.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2017, 01:49:55 PM »
I'm intrigued by the point counter-point nature of arguments surrounding Augusta. I'm a big homer obviously, but don't we all like bunkers that are located purposefully? Tough to argue that bunker location at ANGC isn't at least above average. Also, I thought we collectively liked having short grass lead into bunker here on GCA? The current maintenance practices at Augusta allow that to be an achievable reality. Those renderings seem like a nightmare for achieving an ideal maintenance meld.

Joshua Pettit

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2017, 04:48:42 PM »
I much prefer the existing bunkers to those renderings, but I also much prefer the original bunkers to the existing ones.  It's not all or nothing.  The missing point in this discussion is that it has less to do with the shapes and more to do with how they're maintained.




















"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2017, 05:56:48 PM »
Thanks for starting this thread Matt. Some interesting responses, photos etc. Nice to see the yee olde bunkering, my preference. Not keen on the current style, I think is was described on another thread as 'Florida bunkering'. This may not be a popular comment, but the general 'photoshop design' comparison style as shown in the first post is kind of growing on me the more times I look back at this thread. As to maintenance, a very valid point, but the maintenance budget must be huge and aren't the bunkers covered in tarps for several months p/a?
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2017, 06:14:40 PM »
I just don't understand why we keep discussing bunker styling like it's so important.  You might as well be discussing hairstyles for all I care.  It hasn't got a thing to do with the design or playability of the course.


Maybe they should call themselves stylists.

William_G

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2017, 06:24:51 PM »
that's interesting Tom as there is not a state licensure requirement for a golf course architect/stylist/designer

a "golf architect" is self proclaimed, FWIW

the photoshopping does help an owner make decisions

Masters Sunday, always the best   8)
It's all about the golf!

Steve Lang

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2017, 06:31:43 PM »
 8)  Speaking of stylists ... 


what's next for the ANGC Members, getting fashionable?  I think not... ::)




Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joshua Pettit

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Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2017, 06:58:00 PM »
I just don't understand why we keep discussing bunker styling like it's so important.  You might as well be discussing hairstyles for all I care.  It hasn't got a thing to do with the design or playability of the course.


Maybe they should call themselves stylists.

Tom,

In principle I agree with you, but there's a bit more to it than that.  Form follows function, but aesthetics play a large role in design, even if they are subservient to functionality/usability/playability.  That's one of the primary reasons (in theory) for hiring an architect.  Otherwise engineers would build everything and I sure as hell don't want to live in a world like that!

Suppose you had a spectrum with engineers on one side and artists on the other -- an architect should be somewhere in the middle, navigating a cohesive balance of form and function.

With golf there're other important implications, namely management practices, which influence maintenance budgets and ultimately the cost of golf for the consumer.  If you'd like we could do an exercise to calculate annual labor costs related to different bunker styles and I think the difference would be quite substantial.  Of course Augusta is exempt from that discussion, but the trend they set influences golf around the world -- the "Augusta effect" is a real thing!

But all that aside, at the end of the day you mean to tell me you don't have a personal aesthetic preference one way or the other?  Use the fairway bunker on No. 10 as an example:

« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 07:00:23 PM by Joshua Pettit »
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2017, 07:17:16 PM »
I'm just keeping in touch with everybody during the big golf tournament.

We could talk about Sergio Garcia hitting a 310 yard drive uphill, followed by a 142 yard wedge shot to 6 feet, and then misreading the putt to win the tournament.

It's been a nice show this year.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jackson Kahn Design's Augusta National
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2017, 07:27:40 PM »
John,


Go to the Seve Movie thread
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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