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Mike_Young

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Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2017, 09:52:30 PM »
The term "Minimalism" was always a bad one to describe a movement that should have been called something like Neoclassicism. The movement is not about simple forms and zero earth movement. It was a return to older values and ideas on how courses should be designed and constructed.
Ian - an elegantly succinct and useful/helpful definition, thanks. But a question: for you, do those 'older values' in design and construction *necessarily* involve minimal earth moving, or is that low-impact approach only *sometimes* required (and sometimes not)?  In other words, can we get an exemplary neo-classical golf course using modern techniques?

Peter,
The best modern tool for minimalism is the modern topo mao and the  tools we have for observing land such as drones etc.  Very good minimalism require really good land.  Without it you you can route but you will not find the exceptional...JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Grant Saunders

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Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2017, 03:00:26 AM »
To me, minimalism is a philosophy that applies not just to design but also maintenance and other aspects of course operation. Minimalism seems to produce a certain style as a result of the philosophy which in turn can be very site dependent.

Naturalism is more a style and less the result of a philosophy. It seems to be  the product of a predetermined aesthetic vision and there are many ways to arrive at the same look.

In regards to Mikes original question, squiggly edges without some degree of actual movement in the outline of the from to rationalise it are solely a style driven goal and, to me, look like shit.

Interestingly, given a dead flat site and a minimalist approach, most on here would probably not be super pleased with the result.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2017, 05:28:11 AM »
Mike
 
I think I agree with you assuming I understand your description correctly. To put it another way the bunker style you refer to might be described as normal bunkers but with sods of turf laid down flat on top of the face of the bunker, with actual surface contour not changing much, hence the painted on look.
 
As I said in another thread what the ODG like Colt were trying to achieve was it looking as though the bunker had been gouged out of the earth. Some of the bunkering at Machrihanish Dunes is like that and looks epic.
 
On the other hand some of the stuff that Mike refers to is anaemic and insipid, which is only exasperated by high maintenance regimes. Ironically I think in a lot of instances a bit of benign neglect could do the job better. You often hear the phrase the Augusta effect in reference to clubs desire to copy Augustas beautiful shrubs, green grass etc., but I think there is also the TOC effect which started when TOC was used for the Open every 5 years and redid their bunkers every 5 years to suit. Very quickly it seemed like every club with a links course tried to copy the pristine new revetted look which to me at least is very disappointing.
 
Niall

Niall C

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Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2017, 05:31:55 AM »

Eddie Hackett is probably the greatest minimalist of recent years. Which is probably just as well because he didn't really have an eye for building natural looking features.


Ally,


Admittedly I've only played a limited number of Hackett courses but I don't think routing or strategy were particular strengths either. It seems to me that his courses were at best functional. You have to wonder what a Colt or a Simpson would have done with the same land and resources.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2017, 05:33:52 AM »
I'm with Mike.


Minimalism has nothing to do with a particular bunker style. It's about using what the terrain gives you and moving as little dirt as is feasible. Minimalism does not come with a set of rules for how bunkers should look.


Which is not to say that lacey bunker edges can't be done well. It's just that there isn't much "minimalist" about them.


Bob


Bob


I thought minimalism was making it look as though you had shifted as little dirt as feasible which is crucially different.


Niall

BCrosby

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Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2017, 12:03:12 PM »
Niall -

Tom Doak is better positioned to give an answer. But in his absence, I'll take a whack at your question.

Minimalism, as I understand it, is not primarily about appearances. It's main goal is not to build  golf courses to appear 'natural' (however you want to define that.) 

It's about actually moving as little dirt as possible.

That is the main goal because on good sites the natural contours in fairways will almost always be better than contouring built from the seat of a bulldozer. Tom has noted in the past that small, subtle movements are a defining feature of many of the best Golden Age courses. It is part of why they have the reputations they enjoy. Their fw surfaces tend to be less predictable, more severe and more interesting than anything that might be planned and 'built'. It's one of the payoffs for the lack of large earth-moving equipment in the GA - you get a better, less predictable, more challenging kind of golf.

(The other benefits or minimalism of the sort I have in mind is that you get faster grow-ins and, later, healthier vegetation because it was already established at the site.  Another topic, perhaps.)

The natural look of such courses is all fine, but that is secondary to building a golf course that enhances the quality of the game played on it.  The way courses like TOC or NB or Carnoustie (or pick your GA favorite) do.  Which ought to be the point of good golf course architecture, no?

I said "good sites" above. There are flat sites where more construction is needed (think the Rawls Course or TPC Sawgrass). Given the additional earth-moving needed, I'd guess that the goal of achieving a 'natural' look might have more prominence in the scheme of things at those sites.

Likewise the construction of greens and their surrounds. They require more earth-moving, but earth-moving can be minimized and naturally existing, subtle land forms utilized. Again, with the goal of making for a more interesting brand of golf and not primarily to achieve a certain 'look'.

Thus my own take on minimalism is that it is not about building 'natural looking' courses per se. Lots of people have made and still make that a goal. I think that goal misses the mark. Most interesting about 'minimalism' is that it seeks to move less dirt because moving less dirt (again, on good sites) offers better golf. If the resulting course happens to appear 'natural', so much the better. Given you are moving less dirt, it probably will. But even if it doesn't, it is not a cardinal sin.

I hope Tom will chime in on this. He will express his own views better than I possibly can. The above is meant to respond to your question as to whether 'minimalism' can be reduced to a simple concern with 'natural looking' features.

Bob   
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 02:55:12 PM by BCrosby »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2017, 12:29:26 PM »
I agree with you Bob.
Minimalism is more coupled with the routing process than the bunker aesthetic process.
Minimalistic design inspires a routing that both utilizes as much of the natural property as possible while yielding as good and interesting a golf course as possible.


This is a quote that any architect in the world can use, and often does because it is so subjective.


 
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

BCrosby

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Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2017, 12:47:46 PM »
Mike -


Yes. That is why with a 'minimalist' approach, routing takes on additional importance.


Bob




Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2017, 04:44:30 AM »
To me, minimalism is a philosophy that applies not just to design but also maintenance and other aspects of course operation. Minimalism seems to produce a certain style as a result of the philosophy which in turn can be very site dependent.

Naturalism is more a style and less the result of a philosophy. It seems to be  the product of a predetermined aesthetic vision and there are many ways to arrive at the same look.


Si!

Many of the newer courses (and high profile older courses) lose a certain something in an effort to improve conditions.  Instead, a rugged look is created which looks great in photos, but in person it is clear that a facade has been constructed and maintained.  Sure, there is a happy medium and trying to push for courses to actually be more natural rather than be designed to look natural in photos is uphill battle in tough market. My worry is that courses which truly are distinctive because they are much closer to nature and maintained in a come as will manner will continue to slowly give way to the facade....as has been the case ever since "architecture was invented".

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 04:46:26 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2017, 05:35:53 AM »
To me, minimalism is a philosophy that applies not just to design but also maintenance and other aspects of course operation. Minimalism seems to produce a certain style as a result of the philosophy which in turn can be very site dependent.

Naturalism is more a style and less the result of a philosophy. It seems to be  the product of a predetermined aesthetic vision and there are many ways to arrive at the same look.


Si!

Many of the newer courses (and high profile older courses) lose a certain something in an effort to improve conditions.  Instead, a rugged look is created which looks great in photos, but in person it is clear that a facade has been constructed and maintained.  Sure, there is a happy medium and trying to push for courses to actually be more natural rather than be designed to look natural in photos is uphill battle in tough market. My worry is that courses which truly are distinctive because they are much closer to nature and maintained in a come as will manner will continue to slowly give way to the facade....as has been the case ever since "architecture was invented".

Ciao


Good post

Niall C

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Re: The single plane "jagged edge" bunker , is it considered minimalism?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2017, 11:37:49 AM »
Bob,

My earlier comments about minimalism “looking” like you hadn’t moved much dirt were based on something I think I read from Tom D on this site, however given how dodgy my memory is I was a bit shy in attributing those thoughts to him, particularly when he’s very well equipped to comment for himself.

I would say that I’ve only played one Doak course that being Renaissance, and enjoyed playing 9 holes with Tom. Can’t recall the hole number but I do recall his description of how they shifted a fair amount of dirt to create a landing area and saddle to allow a view of the green for an approach on the right line (the hole is a mid to long par 4). If I didn’t know that I don’t think I’d have been aware of that which I think probably was part of Tom’s intent.

Thinking of the rest of the course, you could be persuaded that tee to green the course had largely been laid out with very little earth being moved. In that respect it reminds me of older courses constructed in the age of horse drawn scoops and men with wheelbarrows and shovels. Now whether that really was part of Tom’s intent I don’t know, but hopefully he will comment.

That said, reading through your post I think I agree with almost everything you wrote on what minimalism means to you. No good reason why there needs to be a prescribed definition.

Mike,

Surely utilising what you’ve got by way of contours or features etc. is just good design and not just particularly minimalism.

Niall

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