Design Associate Needed

[Jon Wiggett]

I don't know how things are in Germany, but my experience would say that my experience contradicts what Ulrich says.

To be fair I do not think I have ever seen a job advert in Germany without it saying what benefits the candidate can expect. I doubt very much that many GCA's on here have applied for work on a project without knowing whether the job was a refurb, new build,.... or an idea of budget.


Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jeff,


An office of 6 over here would make it about the second biggest golf design firm in Europe.


Ally

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,


Probably not far off here.  My posts considered the time-space continuum. Here in America,  its quite possible to get very golf experienced contract drafters.  I can imagine one associate and a few contract drafters for crunch time would be the norm.


Perhaps a bigger interview question for draftsman is really to drafting companies.  A typical question...
Your area code says North Carolina, but you sound like you are calling from New Delhi...where are your really located? 


I sampled Indian drafting once and by the time the mistakes were corrected over three versions of the plan, that $8-12 per hour wasn't really a bargain. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Those at the top of the bell curve don't often apply for a job, as they're usually poached. But when they do apply, then (in my experience) they put a lot of effort into it. They give their CV a do-over (update newest skills etc.), they draft a personal introductory letter, which speaks directly to the person and company they are targeting and that says exactly what they can bring to this job. They update their project list and adapt it to highlight and expand on those projects that they think are relevant for the job they are applying for. They research the employer, what he does as a business, what former employees say about him. They assess their skill set vs. what is asked in the job posting and communicate that etc. etc.

In all this is probably half a day to a full day of unpaid work they are doing. How many times per month do you think someone can afford to do that?

Certainly zero times for a company that invests 5 minutes to heave some boilerplate text into a job portal. If that is all they are prepared to do, then they don't have what it takes to hire at a high level. They'll get stuck with those, who don't particularly care for whether they work here or there and who neither know the value of, nor have the propensity for clear communication.

Of course there are always folks, who can talk a good game, but fail to back it up. However, I would expect them not to last longer than a few weeks in their new job and once that happens a few times, their CV is going to be full of alarm signals and they're not at the top of the bell curve anymore.

And before someone mentions German labour law and its restrictions: there is a period of up to six months (employer's choice), in which you can fire the new employee any day without giving a reason. If you're not able to see through a buffoon in six months, then maybe you're one yourself

Ulrich

[Mike_Young]

On the other hand, even when I had an office full of reasonably experienced staff, I was amazed at the number of times I did a spot check and found they had missed something pretty obvious (like backing water on to adjacent property, not leaving adequate room for ancillary facilities, etc. etc. etc.)  As such, I am not totally sure your contention that they know more than the principal is accurate, but the further the main guy gets from design into marketing, the more that assumption may be true.


And, ask any shaper or contractor....the worst situation is to hand off a project to a competent associate designer, and then return near the end to put your stamp on a project with tweaks and changes.

Jeff,
Read what I said.  I was speaking of associates you had mentioned who work for the Hollywood types.  I bet they know every bit as much or more...the shaper issue you mention is why I like to have the shaper as the associate...

[Richard_Mandell]

Certainly zero times for a company that invests 5 minutes to heave some boilerplate text into a job portal. If that is all they are prepared to do, then they don't have what it takes to hire at a high level. They'll get stuck with those, who don't particularly care for whether they work here or there and who neither know the value of, nor have the propensity for clear communication.

Ulrich,


I will assume you are speaking in generalities here and not referring to my "highly-controversial" job advertisement.  If you happen to be thinking of my situation, then I would probably tell you that you are way off and out of line and out of your element.  I would also tell you that it would be very insulting to make those inferences as you really would have no idea of my office, my past and current (and future) employees, nor my process for hiring, nor my capacity for making smart decisions. 


I've got to think that is not the case.


If a top of the bell-curve person in my business decides eight lines describing exactly what is expected of him/her is not enough info to spend time updating things, that person may not be a top of the bell-curve person.  I would think that a top of the bell-curve person in our business knows exactly what the situation is regarding other employers and doesn't need an essay of explanation.  At this point, quit with the bell-curve talk acting as if I am lazy in my job seeking, which you are clearly doing.


Ulrich, I am sure you are just talking in generalities, though.


If, indeed, you are referring to the job search process in general and not my advertisement nor this business, please don't bother anymore.  This is a discussion group about golf architecture and not human resources.  Again, these threads that morph into criticism of how professionals approach all aspects of their job drive us away from wanting to participate.  They really do. So many of you really need to think about what you want out of this website.  Do you want healthy conversation about golf architecture or do you want to criticize and boast of how smart you are?  This whole thread is not really healthy discussion.  It is not.


I am too busy to spend half a day on a job advertisement when I am well aware of what I need to do to find another Design Associate as I have been quite successful in the past so please quit espousing about the details of human resources.  I apparently have what it takes to need another person in the current climate.  I am safe to assume that both Jeff and Mike would agree with that and, both being friends I have know a long time, are somewhat happy to hear of my needs.


The simple point of my initiation of this thread is that there are people here that are looking for jobs or may know someone else who may be interested (and they would probably trend more toward top of the bell-curve).  My assumption was true as I have heard from a good number of candidates who I would consider tops. 


Go find a mound to discuss and I'll be glad to participate.  P.s. I'm not really a fan of mounds.

[Garland Bayley]

Of course there are always folks, who can talk a good game, but fail to back it up. However, I would expect them not to last longer than a few weeks in their new job and once that happens a few times, their CV is going to be full of alarm signals and they're not at the top of the bell curve anymore.

Over here we make them VPs.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Richard,

I've repeatedly posted (in replies #89 and #94) that I am not referring specifically to your job posting, but speaking in general. I've said that I am sure you are a good guy and that I'm glad you got all the applications you need (I wouldn't have posted before you said that in order not to deter anyone from applying). I've also said that the job market for golf design associates may be unnaturally tight, in which case my general remarks might not apply.

But I've also said that we can all get better at what we do. And if we want to get better, then hopefully someone can provide (possibly slightly contrarian) input for us to learn from.

But of course, that is just my opinion. Everyone is free to decide that he's already good enough and needs no additional input.

I also think that interpersonal skills play a huge role in golf architecture and quite often determine the quality of the course. So my impression was that I am on-topic.

However, you do speak about the quality of this discussion board and whether I am doing it a disservice by perhaps stretching the definition of "golf architecture" too far and thus stifle interesting discussions. And then two paragraphs on you say that your post was not meant to create any discussion, just to inform (advertise).

To me that sounds as if you're holding yourself to different standards than others.

Ulrich