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Marty Bonnar

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The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« on: March 30, 2017, 06:34:46 PM »

The debate on the Job Advert thread forced me into starting this one. Here's my 56-year-old opinion.
EVERY other profession involved in building, quantity surveying, construction, landscape, architectural, structural and engineering design, LONG AGO decided that the best way to ensure a proper level of quality was to set up a simple basic set of qualifications AND experience which would provide prospective customers/clients with some comfort that the professional they were engaging was capable of satisfying their requirements.
My personal experience is mostly with building and landscape architecture, so it's easiest for me to provide an example from there.
So, in order to call oneself an 'Architect' in the UK, you MUST have passed all of the Parts of the RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects) qualification. In my day - and probably similarly today - that involved passing two separate degrees AND doing at least TWO YEARS in practice before you could even use the name. More seriously, that was followed up by the fact that you couldn't get any kind of professional indemnity insurance without these.
It strikes me now, and did when I spent the year doing the MSc in Golf Course Architecture, that the professional bodies for this business fail utterly at establishing the credentials required to practice as a Golf Course Architect.
Simply put, this means that bodies like the ASGCA and the EIGCA can never REALLY provide the potential customers of their members that the person they are engaging is properly QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED, in the same way that, for example, the RIBA can. In that context they can be little more than a closed-shop fraternity until the time that they are prepared to establish a PROFESSIONAL LEVEL OF SERVICE for their members to follow. Yes, I know there's guidelines and such, but that's simply not good enough.
Now, I know there are incompetent Architects, Engineers, Builders out there, the same as there are in any field, so let's not assume that all is well in the world outside of golf course design and construction.
I just think that this profession would better serve itself and its customers if it took itself a bit more seriously PROFESSIONALLY.
Just IMHO, of course...


F.

The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2017, 08:25:02 PM »
Marty,

Have you checked whether one of the most in demand professions these days has professional certification requirements there in the U.K.?

Software Engineer

Haven't noticed one being established here in the U.S.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 10:50:34 PM »
Martin - Not much difference here with the medical professions. When you see a new doctor do you really know whether he/she is proficient at their profession? Their associations are no help... most recommendations come by word-of-mouth from friends and acquaintances. You take a lot on faith when you put yourself in their hands, do you not?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Connolly

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 10:50:40 PM »
A bad architect who has not passed his exams and therefore is not qualified won't be allowed to design a building that will fall down on people's heads.


A bad golf architect who doesn't need to pass exams may not be qualified but when he designs a bad course, no one dies. It's just that no one plays his course and someone loses a lot of money.


The consequences of failure for each dictate the requirements going in.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 11:48:45 PM »
Marty:


All these sorts of qualifications in professional fields [engineering, medicine, law, etc.] are instigated and driven not by clients but by the professionals ... to increase barriers to entry, discourage competition, and drive up prices, plain and simple.


I believe there are lots of golf course architects who would love to do just that, but it's tough when nearly all of the preeminent people in the field do NOT have the qualifications that they would insist upon.  How could you make a rule when Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio and Bill Coore have NO QUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER, apart from having done it for years and years ?  And how can you justify the need for a rule, under those circumstances?


One theme of our politics in the USA these days is "credentialism" ... there are all sorts of experts and pundits telling us how we need experienced leaders to guide us.  And that's mostly just the status quo trying to remain so.  In fact, it's been pushed so hard that a decent percentage of Mr. Trump's support was a well-organized backlash to all the liberals and the media telling people they didn't understand what was best for them.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 11:54:19 PM by Tom_Doak »

Steve Lang

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017, 12:30:13 AM »
 8) 


Marty,
Does MSc mean Masters of Scotland or Science?  One can always be a professional scientist, just speak up.   Degrees often only get you your first job, so experience certainly counts...   


Tom,
One can be "grandfathered" into a professional engineer status in many states, but you have to document it pretty well, and yes it does seem like a barrier, but its also like filling out any application... can you deal with the details and get it done?







Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017, 03:49:12 AM »
A naughty person once enquired, possibly, just possibly, tongue in cheek, of someone who said they 'practiced' their profession when they were going to stop 'practicing' and start doing it properly. Ouch! :)
atb

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2017, 08:16:18 AM »
Martin
 
I think it won’t happen because of Economics. If the industry was larger it would be able to get legislation forcing others to comply. It would be driven by the dominant firms.   Insurance co’s would accept the new standards and grandfathering would homogenise things whilst the new generation with certificates came though.  You talk about professions and apart from the oldest one, I believe all the others you cite are recognised officially.
 
I think GCA’s are in  a similar situation to Garden Designers. Some are fully qualified Landscape Architects and others have qualifie fomr the University of Life.   Societies exist but they don’t have the status , or requireed training that the Law can demand. Two in Britain that are aimed primarily at the domestic market have swept away many others, but they are no more than loose Marketing associations  and conduits for sharing knowledge.
For designers     http://www.sgd.org.uk/
For contractor (designers)         https://www.landscaper.org.uk/
 
 
 
It would be easy to make a case that Professional Bodies promote homogeneity and reduce creativity. I don’t believe, e.g. Repton, Brown or Jekyl were members of any society when they broke through and did such original work.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Craig Sweet

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2017, 08:24:48 AM »
Tom Doak nailed it....



LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mike_Young

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 09:31:28 AM »
While acknowledging that many golf designers are still plan focused, I feel that we are seeing a change away from such and seeing more and more doing design/build.  Since the 1940' the plan-contractor method has been the way.  And as for experience I will take a young person who has actually been in the dirt building for a year over any guy who has been sitting at a desk in the office drawing for 5 years.   And in actuality one just has to look back over the last 50 years and see the "plan" architects who had their own construction companies and were not telling the client they owned the company as proof  this is the way it works best. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 11:31:21 AM »

John C is closest to the mark.  Now that he has moved to TX, he is adopting our state mindset of over regulation. ;)   


But he is right.  To a degree, government (and its need to grow or at least stay busy to justify their department) dictate more and more regulations (someone please name a year when either state or federal regulations books decreased in pages or size)


Personally, I wonder if even LA needs to be licensed (although many LA's do feel they should) hair cutters, pedicurists, and several other fields that would probably yield less in benefits than it costs governments to enforce.


There is very little health, safety, and welfare concerns when designing a  golf course, presuming the architect is smart enough (not always the case with Mom and Pop courses) is smart enough to know they need wetlands specialists, engineers for bridges, etc.


And, for reasons TD posts, ASGCA is always active in stopping any state that tries to put golf design under the landscape architect or engineers licensed umbrella.  As far as limiting markets and raising fees, I think the "standard fee schedule" was outlawed in 1974.  Engineers still seem to be in lock step, but you can always find good bargains in landscape and golf design.


BTW, Pete Dye started calling himself a golf course designer years ago, believing a designer had less liability than an architect.  He was following most states that have landscape architecture licensing, but use "title" criteria instead of "practice criteria."  In other words, you can do the same thing as a landscape architect, but must call yourself a landscape designer, gardener or artist, etc.  And, there might still be some elements in a landscape design, like bridges, that should be engineered by someone qualified.


Whatever laws exist, some ma and pa couple will decide to build a home made golf course.  While it is likely to be poor, should we stop them from trying out their dream?  Some (on all sides, govt., GCA, GCBuilders, etc.) would like to try. 


But, its a free country, no?  Unless there is a clear need to protect for the common good, it probably isn't necessary to regulate.  There really is no pat answer on the need for qualifications, state regulations, etc.  If they remove a quarter acre of wetland, is that hurting the world?  25 Acres, well maybe.  But any regulation has to be one size fits all, so there will always be cases that "prove" the need for regulation or de-regulation and never will there be agreement.


Given current reductions in regulation going on, the question is how much is too much?  In golf design, it should be a pretty low bar.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Greg Smith

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 01:59:18 PM »
Tom D -- I like what you say about "credentialism".

In my daytime (and occasionally nighttime) life, I am a bone marrow transplant nurse.  I belong to the oncology department of a major hospital.  Some years ago when I wanted to make a career switch, I was able to sit for the RN exam in my state once I had successfully completed my associates degree in nursing -- which only took two years.  The job I then landed just happened to be on the bone marrow transplant unit, and I prospered there.

I have held this office for 12 years now.  The initial training I received from my unit/hospital was much more thorough and comprehensive than anything I received in nursing school.  I am now one of the more senior nurses at my facility.  With this amount of experience in the specialty I can confidently call myself an expert and really be able to back it up.

In the state where I live, the requirement for the RN exam is STILL only a two-year degree.  But in this day and age, no RN is going to get hired unless they have a full four-year degree.  My hospital three years ago adopted a firm hiring requirement to this effect.  Almost every hospital has done the same, even though there is a regulatory low bar.  If I wanted to change hospitals at this point, I would first have to go back to school and earn that four-year degree -- probably learning little or nothing in the process.

Why are organizations doing this?  Because (a) the public puts a misplaced faith in "university education" to provide a "safeguard"; (b) for PR reasons the hospitals want to pander to this misplaced faith; and (c) major university hospitals typically also run four-year colleges of nursing that generate revenue.

I have zero problem with earning credentials in any profession based on exam.  The questions are the questions, plain and simple.  You nail em or you don't.  But even the exam process can be manipulated.  The Oncology Nursing Society recently created a new certification for bone marrow transplant nurses (the BMT-CN).  Okay, great.  I took a look at the test material and as an experienced BMT nurse it wasn't too hard.  However, in order to take the exam I would have to pay ONS almost $500.   For what?  Generating exam material and providing a place to take the test?  Is such a certification even required to do my job or maintain my position?  Heck, no.  Receiving the BMT-CN would only give my unit/hospital another set of "initials" to post on the wall so that the visiting public can see how advanced we are, and shine up the luster a little.

This same kind of nonsense is going on in many other fields.  Golf architecture is as much art as science.  And it isn't even "mission-critical" in the way nursing, medicine, or even law might be.  The GCA world should keep the amount of interference as small as possible.  Aside from a few environmental restrictions that might be legit (and even those are getting out of hand), there's no reason to legislate/regulate/litigate.  Any attempts to do so are really all about the money and NOT about serving the game of golf.
O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

Mike_Young

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2017, 09:04:17 AM »
Golf design is a bunch of adults playing in a big sand box...some of the nerd types wish to complicate it so that it can be looked upon as some extremely difficult deal and a profession.....if you can see it and have a knack for it and can sell it then you can do it....to put it all in perspective read this :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton_Naki   this guy was a bad ass.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 07:08:28 PM »
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your intelligent, considered responses. They make for excellent reading and provide much food for thought.
Unfortunately, I do however have to tell you all that you're utterly full of keech.  ;D
If I'd actually finished the seven years it would have taken me to become an ARCHITECT, (I did two and a half years), I'd be more than mightily pissed off that you think it's okay to call yourself an architect just for fun.
A made-up title, with no backing other than an ego. I think not.
By all means, be a golf course designer, a golf course constructor, a builder, a maker, a manufacturer. But, stealing the word 'architect' (from the Greek, 'master builder') from people who've actually earned the title by study and experience is cheap and shoddy in the extreme.
OR
Actually decide your profession deserves the title and build a syllabus of study and experience which supports that.


F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Sean_A

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 07:43:57 PM »
Sorry FBD, to me, master builder does not imply that a compreshensive 7 year (or whatever) educational program should be required....I highly doubt the Greeks believed this either  ;D   I have absolutely no doubt a gca can become a master at his craft without ever enrolling in a gca course....and history proves this to be the case.  Why archies would ever want to muck up the waters with pieces of paper is beyond me....unless it is a plot to reduce the number of candidates to be hired.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 07:49:26 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Young

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2017, 08:33:32 PM »
  Why archies would ever want to muck up the waters with pieces of paper is beyond me....unless it is a plot to reduce the number of candidates to be hired.

Ciao
hmmmmm.... ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2017, 01:26:43 AM »

By all means, be a golf course designer, a golf course constructor, a builder, a maker, a manufacturer. But, stealing the word 'architect' (from the Greek, 'master builder') from people who've actually earned the title by study and experience is cheap and shoddy in the extreme.
OR
Actually decide your profession deserves the title and build a syllabus of study and experience which supports that.



Marty,


I think you're getting a little bogged down with semantics. The use of the expression "Golf Course Architect" is probably a little unfortunate and even inappropriate, but it goes back 100 years to the days of MacKenzie, Colt, Fowler etc. and has become the accepted term.


There is no suggestion of an equivalence between a golf course architect and a "real" architect; although no doubt that there was more than a little self-aggrandisement in the use of the title by the aforementioned and their contemporaries in an attempt to inflate fees and to protect social standing.


It is little different to wood cutters calling themselves "Tree Surgeons".  No qualifications needed - just the ability and experience to do the work, the appropriate insurance cover, and the chutzpa to blag the job...


https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/job-profiles/tree-surgeon#entry-requirements
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 01:47:46 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2017, 01:55:07 AM »
Marty:


All these sorts of qualifications in professional fields [engineering, medicine, law, etc.] are instigated and driven not by clients but by the professionals ... to increase barriers to entry, discourage competition, and drive up prices, plain and simple.

Well, I mentioned software engineers before. A huge percentage of the so called software engineers are highly incompetent mistake generators, and clients would be well served to have an accreditation requirement.

I believe there are lots of golf course architects who would love to do just that, but it's tough when nearly all of the preeminent people in the field do NOT have the qualifications that they would insist upon.  How could you make a rule when Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus and Tom Fazio and Bill Coore have NO QUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER, apart from having done it for years and years ?  And how can you justify the need for a rule, under those circumstances?
isn't the real issue that no one is going to die from malpractice, so let the buyer beware serves as the controlling criteria.

One theme of our politics in the USA these days is "credentialism" ... there are all sorts of experts and pundits telling us how we need experienced leaders to guide us.  And that's mostly just the status quo trying to remain so.  In fact, it's been pushed so hard that a decent percentage of Mr. Trump's support was a well-organized backlash to all the liberals and the media telling people they didn't understand what was best for them.
And, conservatives weren't telling them what was best for them? So you reject what credentialists tell, and this is what you get? In that case, I'll go with the credentialists every time.

As you can see, I fall in the not what Tom Doak said camp.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ben Stephens

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2017, 02:05:40 AM »

Marty


RIBA qualifications is actually Part I - three years degree then year out in practice then Part II two years post graduate degree then another year out in practice then Part III which is more of legal, documentation, planning laws, procurements etc (quarterly visits to university for all day lectures whilst working) culminating in a 48 hour exam and a final interview with a panel of architects. I am now 15 years post qualification (blimey!). 


It can be done full time (7 years) or part time (10-12 years)


I was told by EIGCA many years ago that I had to go through their golf course architecture course of which a lot of it that I have already completed through RIBA courses like laws and procurements. The only area of the course I have not done is the golf course design coursework aspect.


I feel this course is too short to really be accredited as a proper 'architect' equivalent to doctors and lawyers surely there should be a landscape design course as first degree and then the golf course architecture degree as the second course followed by a couple of years experience to achieve/deserve being called an 'architect'.

Golf Course Designer is a better description for those who are newly qualified like Architectural Assistant and Junior Doctors so that people are more aware of levels of training and experience that they have covered.

Have there been some famous golf pros see or describe themselves as 'Golf Course Architect' without any training. Is that right?

In the UK from 2016 onwards to work on designing large public building projects your practice have to have BIM (Building Information Model) qualification/credentials which costs money and time to gain further training. Could this happen to GCA in the future where robots will eventually build the course based on the BIM modelling?  ::)


The debate on the Job Advert thread forced me into starting this one. Here's my 56-year-old opinion.
EVERY other profession involved in building, quantity surveying, construction, landscape, architectural, structural and engineering design, LONG AGO decided that the best way to ensure a proper level of quality was to set up a simple basic set of qualifications AND experience which would provide prospective customers/clients with some comfort that the professional they were engaging was capable of satisfying their requirements.
My personal experience is mostly with building and landscape architecture, so it's easiest for me to provide an example from there.
So, in order to call oneself an 'Architect' in the UK, you MUST have passed all of the Parts of the RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects) qualification. In my day - and probably similarly today - that involved passing two separate degrees AND doing at least TWO YEARS in practice before you could even use the name. More seriously, that was followed up by the fact that you couldn't get any kind of professional indemnity insurance without these.
It strikes me now, and did when I spent the year doing the MSc in Golf Course Architecture, that the professional bodies for this business fail utterly at establishing the credentials required to practice as a Golf Course Architect.
Simply put, this means that bodies like the ASGCA and the EIGCA can never REALLY provide the potential customers of their members that the person they are engaging is properly QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED, in the same way that, for example, the RIBA can. In that context they can be little more than a closed-shop fraternity until the time that they are prepared to establish a PROFESSIONAL LEVEL OF SERVICE for their members to follow. Yes, I know there's guidelines and such, but that's simply not good enough.
Now, I know there are incompetent Architects, Engineers, Builders out there, the same as there are in any field, so let's not assume that all is well in the world outside of golf course design and construction.
I just think that this profession would better serve itself and its customers if it took itself a bit more seriously PROFESSIONALLY.
Just IMHO, of course...


F.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 02:16:29 AM by Ben Stephens »

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2017, 03:20:38 AM »
I wonder what formal qualifications God and a few sheep had achieved before they were permitted to lay out early courses?
 :)
Atb

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2017, 04:12:15 AM »
Hi Garland:


If the first part of your response is true, there should be overwhelming public outcry to train and license software engineers, and so the market will soon deliver that.  If not, what's holding it back?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2017, 12:34:24 PM »
Hi Garland:


If the first part of your response is true, there should be overwhelming public outcry to train and license software engineers, and so the market will soon deliver that.  If not, what's holding it back?

The shear volume of software being required by the marketplace means clients can't get the software they want or need, and are constantly demanding extensions. They simply deal as best they can with the problems they find in the software, and continue to demand more functionality.

The professionals at this time are not going to demand an accreditation, because they can't get enough professionals to fulfill the demand they have now. They are poaching kids out of school to get warm bodies.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2017, 03:32:50 PM »

The other part of this equation is the basic apprentice system informally in place now.  When asked how I knew it was time to leave my mentors and go out on my own, one of my answers was always that I had probably made enough mistakes under their name, and figured I would learn more making them under my own name, where the consequences would have more ramifications.


Again, it is rare for someone to die as a result of a golf course architecture mistake, unless involving bridges, paths, or maybe safety standards. (i.e. houses too close to golf) but less than perfect drainage, greens with "too much" contour, etc. always happen, even if some is matter of opinion.


Add in that I wouldn't design something now, looking back at some of my early design features, that I did back then.  That said, I think I had the basics mastered. Mistakes?  Or learning by experience, which is going to happen even if you meet some minimum standard.  There are all kind of mistakes, or judgement calls if you will.  Drain a course with 2% slope or 3%?  What size drain pipe, etc.


The logical extension of minimally qualified golf designers is minimal qualifications for design (architecture has its building codes, but no one thinks these are necessary for golf design).  Then, its testing, but also review of all designs, much like ADA consultants review designs now.


You can sign me up for "golf course design inspector" as my retirement job.  Those young whippersnappers are going to get it!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2017, 05:22:46 PM »

The danger with qualifications and guidelines is it can lead to too much thinking in the box and so kill innovation which in a creative field such as GCA is a big negative.


Jon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Qualification > Experience Continuum
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2017, 08:17:47 PM »
It occurred to me today that two of the biggest early proponents of the term "golf architect" were Harry Colt, a licensed solicitor, and Alister MacKenzie, a licensed physician.


So they brought the credentialism, even if they didn't bring a test for it alongside.

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