Pennard or Royal Porthcawl?

[Sean_A]

+1


I shudder when I see the nonstop tinkering on #2, as if to bring it up to "championship" standard.
I hope they never see the need for expensive conditioning changes on the race to the bottom of homogonization.
A very natural course, sheep and cows grazing(if they still are) "perfect" fairways and greens would spoil the effect.
It's an outdoor game

Guys as we were once there together I'm not going to suggest we've seen difference courses but I'd say Brora fits the bill perfectly in terms of natural conditioning but in all honestly Pennard has a long way to go before the conditioning is up to that which I've seen Brora in. I suppose for me it's just too big a leap and not really something you can make excuses for for years and then on top of that always hear the same excuses from everyone that goes.

Sean, have you ever seen it in "good" shape. I mean not great, just good as far as the turf goes?

Jeff, perfect...says the guy living on Long Island, I'm here in continental Europe and perfect, or even great has not yet been experienced here, my daily play is on average perhaps but that average is a far cry from what we saw at Pennard.


Eric Smith....why yes I chrome them both!

David

Nope...never seen Pennard in good nick...just acceptable (often played better than it looked) until my last visit when it was in quite poor condition.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

One aspect of Pennard is the pretty extreme changes in elevation within the course.
Here are some photos to give an indication of how the terrain varies, in particular how deep the gully that crosses much of land through the middle of the course is. And the gully is played over and through several times during 18-holes.
atb
Below - taken from the 18th tee and looking over the 10th green with the 11th green in the background (below the water tower). The man playing a shot in the middle of the photo has gone somewhat wayward and is actually playing to the 10th green not from the correct fairway but from the winter 11th tee!!

Below - two photos of the 11th green the first taken from slightly above green level, the second taken from the bridge that crosses the bottom of the valley. The tee on the skyline in the first photo is on the front-9.


Below - over the back of the 5th green....and the slope falls away even more than this photo shows.

Below - looking up from the 17th tee towards the 16th green. The horses were ridden across the rear of the green (although not on the putting surface).

[Bill_McBride]

Sean,


I thought Porthcawl's set of threes - with the possible exception of 7 - were elegance personified. Nothing to do with the conditioning.


Ally

I thought the big mounds at Porthcawl #7 were very out of character. 

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm in Sean's camp with these two courses. Pennard, while not as fine tuned as Porthcawl, just has more pure character and style. Porthcawl is a wonderful course, but it is a bit homogenized. It's no wonder that Porthcawl would be considered a better stoke play tournament course as offers a much more "reliable" outcome to top players. Pennard is probably considered "unfair" in too many spots by the card & pencil set to win them over.

[jeffwarne]

This thread is like a Rorschach ink blot personality test.


Pennard...by a mile
and I think the 7 at RP is accurate

[Thomas Dai]

This thread is like a Rorschach ink blot personality test.
Pennard...by a mile
and I think the 7 at RP is accurate

The link blot looks more like Pennards routing than Porthcawls to me!
Atb

[James Brown]

How would the conditioning at Pennard compare to Brora?

[Ian Andrew]

Played throughout Wales a few years back ... highly recommend the experience.


To answer the question ... Porthcawl is easily my pick for the best.
Pennard's 7th is my favourite hole from of both courses and worth the visit alone.
Porthcawl has an amazing and underrated set of threes.


I want to echo the comment on Southerndown.
After the crazy opener there is an outstanding run of golf.
Definitely worth the play.

[Tim Gallant]

I recently played both on consecutive days and have listed a few thoughts below. A massive caveat as I have only played each one time, but I would give the slight edge to Porthcawl.


- Agree that the highs at Pennard are higher than at Porthcawl, and believe holes like 7 and 11 are quite original and special (although they have stuck a bunker in at the 11th greenside, which spoils the hole slightly)


- Pennard was a difficult walk - both in terms of the terrain, but also in terms of the green to tee transitions. I walk and carry every round throughout the year, and that was one of the most difficult walks I've had.


- I thought Porthcawl was great when categorised in that 'championship' venue discussion. What I mean is that, for me, courses like Hoylake, Lytham and Birkdale seemed to have been homogenised for The Open, and therefore, there isn't anything I would say is really unique to the world of golf, whereas at Porthcawl, I still thought there were fantastic holes and greens that you don't see on championship courses. Specifically, I am thinking of the 1st green, the approach at 2 and 3, the 5 green (severe back to front and pinched), the entire 10th hole, and 18 green. There is enough variety there to stimulate and excite.


- The 17th hole at Pennard is not great in its current form. The approach has no risk / reward balance that makes going for the green tempting. I don't mind the fairway narrowing towards the green, but the penalty is a lot ball in the bushes, and they have become too invasive throughout the hole. It needs to be cut back substantially. It could be a fine hole, but in it's current version, it's not great.


- The 7th at Pennard must be seen by all those who love golf architecture. Does anyone know if the green used to be approached from a different side? I love the current hole, but can't imagine anyone who would have built that green with the hole playing the way it does. If so, hats off - that is quite something!


On a 10 round split, it would be close, and I'd love to play both again and again. But I think I would give the edge to Porthcawl: 6-4.

[Sean_A]

Would someone care to select the following -

The 4 best par-3's taken from either course
The 4 best par-5's taken from either course
The 10 best par-4's taken from either course

Atb

ATB

A first stab

PAR 3s

Pennard: 5, 11 & 13....RP:14

PAR 4s

Pennard: 6, 7, 8, 9 & 14....RP: 2, 9, 10, 13 & 15 (I can see 16 & 18 getting a mention, but I very much dislike the last three par 4s having their fairways interrupted...even so...I don't see either one of these as being obviously better than the Pennard selections)

PAR  5s

Pennard: 4, 10 & 16...RP: 8 (easily RP's weak point)

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for giving my alternative comparison method a pop Sean. Interesting conclusion!
I’ve been pondering this since it popped back up again at the top of the Dicussion Board and I’d still place Pennard above RP. Indeed, and this might get some quizzical reaction, I might even place Southerndown between them!
Blue touch paper time?
Atb

[Sean_A]

On a 10 round split, it would be close, and I'd love to play both again and again. But I think I would give the edge to Porthcawl: 6-4.

While I am almost always going to go for the course with dynamic land, which is essentially why I prefer Pennard to Porthcawl, Tim's final assessment essentially sums up my thoughts.  Its a great thing when a course which never gets ranked in the top 100 by traditional panels, costs not far off half, and can boast of no tournament history, can give Porthcawl a run.  It doesn't much matter which side of the coin you fall on when things are put in perspective. 

Ciao

[David Davis]

Sean and Tim,


As original stated here I definitely side with Tim on this but that being said, Sean as you know I enjoy the dramatic land properties much the same as you and Tim being a member where he is probably does as well.


Really Pennard for me suffers so much from the conditioning. I mean every time I've seen it's been extremely poor and I can look past that as a one off because indeed it's so cool but if I lived there and was a member of both clubs I just wouldn't bother to visit at all after not seeing improvements. Also this whole thing with the second hole that's been going on for 10 years...sorry not believable any longer.


This simple fact makes one an 8 and the other a 6 that I would treat like a 4 and stay away from. Novelty factor and cool architecture fade into the distance with time when the minimum of conditioning requirements are not met. Sad, and I love the place and play most of my golf in NL on courses that are nowhere near as well groomed as Porthcawl but as bad as continental Europe is I've never seen a course that was still open that is consistently anywhere near as bad as Pennard.

[Thomas Dai]

Ah yes, the conditioning aspect.
Turn things around a bit ...... if Porthcawl had the same kind of conditioning as Pennard where would folks preference lie?
Atb

[David Davis]

Ah yes, the conditioning aspect.
Turn things around a bit ...... if Porthcawl had the same kind of conditioning as Pennard where would folks preference lie?
Atb

Thomas,


Is that really all you pulled out of my comment? You know what, I've played quite a few courses, something like 600 around the world and off hand its the worst conditioned course with high potential I've ever seen. If it was a one off, then yes I'd agree you could say "if" but unfortunately it's been this way for the last 10 years (that I know of) and I've never once heard a different story about someone going there and the conditions being average, not great, not good but average.


So if I were to make the huge jump and say assume same conditioning as Porthcawl which I can't imagine will ever be the case. I would play 6 rounds at Porthcawl to 4 at Pennard.

[Mark Pearce]

This simple fact makes one an 8 and the other a 6 that I would treat like a 4 and stay away from.

You know that a 3 is an average golf course?  So a 4 is better than average?  I have only ever played Pennard when BUDA was there but have no reason to believe its conditioning then was unusual.  Sure, it wasn't impeccably manicured.  And yes, I have played on smoother greens.  But no way was it nearly as bad as you suggest.  It would seem from what others have said that most people's experience is more similar to mine than yours. 


I am puzzled, though.  You say you have been there multiple times and every time it has been extremely poor.  How many times and, if that's the case, why do you keep going back?

[Eric Smith]

I am puzzled, though.  You say you have been there multiple times and every time it has been extremely poor.  How many times and, if that's the case, why do you keep going back?

His Sponsor makes him?

[James Brown]

Can someone answer my question about the relative conditioning of Pennard and Brora?  Or Machrinahinsh?  Or Askernish? 


Just curious when people are talking about Pennard’s relative poor condition, what would be comparable?


I am visiting Wales for the first time and playing Porthcawl and Pennard in July.  Southerdown too. 

[David Davis]

This simple fact makes one an 8 and the other a 6 that I would treat like a 4 and stay away from.

You know that a 3 is an average golf course?  So a 4 is better than average?  I have only ever played Pennard when BUDA was there but have no reason to believe its conditioning then was unusual.  Sure, it wasn't impeccably manicured.  And yes, I have played on smoother greens.  But no way was it nearly as bad as you suggest.  It would seem from what others have said that most people's experience is more similar to mine than yours. 


I am puzzled, though.  You say you have been there multiple times and every time it has been extremely poor.  How many times and, if that's the case, why do you keep going back?

Given you were there with me if I'm not mistaken on my first visit I'm puzzled by your being puzzled. Yes the architecture and land movement make it interesting enough to still be above average even with poor conditioning for me. Hey if that for you is perfectly acceptable then we simply have different expectations however please point out any comment or let me know when one of your buddies has returned from there and said, damn that turf was amazing, or even it was good. Consistent yes. Have you ever seen the second hole finished?


Poor conditioning but really interesting architecture definitely justifies multiple visits for me especially if you are trying to show friends that you know will be interested.


James, I think you have to wait and see, please report back. My experience is that Brora and Machrihanish are in far better shape. Pennard is more interesting than both of those by a long shot in terms of architecture and land movement for me.


I've unfortunately not seen Askernish yet but would love to.

[Sean_A]

David

We can only speak to our experiences.  As a member of Pennard for many years, I never thought the course was in unacceptable condition...obviously.  It was only on the visit before last (with GCAers I think) that things had gone significantly downhill for the fairways.  The greens were still very acceptable.  My easy solution is to the move the ball when the course is in poor nick.  But then I am far more interested in playing interesting golf courses than I am about the rules.  On the flip side of the coin, I have never seen Porthcawl in any sort of state for it to be praised.  I played it last year and the greens were worse than any time at Pennard.  I chalked it up to prepping for the Senior Amateur.  In other words, not a big issue in terms of rating, but not so good for the fun factor.

Concerining the 2nd, the club should be ashamed.  It was a bad concept from the start and done for the wrong reasons.

My bottom line, Pennard remains very high on my Happy 100 list.  Porthcawl is not to be seen. That said, like many famous courses, I would happily return if the price is right because its a bloody good course. 

BTW   I agree, Brora and Machrihanish don't hang with Pennard.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hey David,


Do you really find Pennard more interesting than Machrihanish and Brora? That’s a big statement (for me anyway as I’m a big fan of those two).


Once I finally visit, I think it will be hard pushed to beat Porthcawl (which I love) but I really need to make a proper effort to get there.


It’s still behind Brancaster / Hunstanton, Westward Ho! / Saunton and Rye / Littlestone in the order of visits I need to make to courses I haven’t seen in GB&I... but if I add Pennard in with Southerndown, it’s probably the next on the list.

[David Davis]

Sean,


When push comes to shove, I doubt we differ too much but you do often take in price/quality which I totally ignore as I think you have to choose one or the other or comparison gets far too difficult.


One question, when I visited the first time it was with you. Are you talking about that time by chance I remember the greens being ok? I'm with you and as I've already said I can look through rough conditions but after a few trips over many years doesn't there become a time when you think ok, that's just not reasonable anymore. I get they have serious growing issues or something, not an expert there so tough for me to say. When I have seen it basically it's been like one of my favorite courses here in NL last fall that normally always has good turf but the drought from last summer had all but ruined the turf so that the fall literally falls into the cracks between the turf so the grass mat is just not adequate, but like you mention, indeed you can move it around. Again one time fine but a few times the same just doesn't make sense.


Yes architecture and ground movement etc, routing is great so yes we agree there for sure.


Ally:


Short answer is, I think you will like it as well as or better than the others you mention. It's that good and as already pointed out I would take my friends there even though the conditioning is below average. 

[Mark Pearce]

David,


As I said in my post, the only times I have played Pennard were at the Welsh BUDA.  I don't believe you were at that BUDA, so no, I don't think we played there at the same time.  At that BUDA the conditioning was not unacceptable.  And yes, I have seen the second hole finished.  In fact, I'm struggling to understand why that would be a particular problem?  The 17th is just a bad hole and I can understand that being a problem to finish.  But the 2nd?  I don't get that.  The conditioning is what you would expect of a course that has cattle grazing.  No worse, no better and quite playable, which is all I ask.


James,


I'd say that Brora is in better condition.  First because the greens are excellent and protected, second because sheep do less harm than cows.  I love Brora and would have it slightly ahead of Pennard but in general it appears I'm more of a fan of relatively flat links courses than some others.  I can certainly understand why Sean would prefer Pennard and most certainly wouldn't say he's wrong.  I think it's just a question of taste.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

When push comes to shove, I doubt we differ too much but you do often take in price/quality which I totally ignore as I think you have to choose one or the other or comparison gets far too difficult.

One question, when I visited the first time it was with you. Are you talking about that time by chance I remember the greens being ok? I'm with you and as I've already said I can look through rough conditions but after a few trips over many years doesn't there become a time when you think ok, that's just not reasonable anymore. I get they have serious growing issues or something, not an expert there so tough for me to say. When I have seen it basically it's been like one of my favorite courses here in NL last fall that normally always has good turf but the drought from last summer had all but ruined the turf so that the fall literally falls into the cracks between the turf so the grass mat is just not adequate, but like you mention, indeed you can move it around. Again one time fine but a few times the same just doesn't make sense.

Yes architecture and ground movement etc, routing is great so yes we agree there for sure.

David

I never include price when rating a course...that is strictly for personal preference (Happy 100) and recommendations.  Ironically, many of the non-architecture elements such as Porthcawl's house, history and setting help its cause imo.  I do think these things influence opinion on the quality of the design. I will say that on a personal level, if a course costs quite a bit more as is the case with Porthcawl VS Pennard, I expect better conditioning/presentation if not better architetcture. In this example, Porthcawl doesn't shine any brighter than Pennard.  Hence, given the price, I prefer Pennard.

Yes, I think we were on the same trip when Pennard's fairways were awful; that may have been the same trip for Tenby when the fairways were awful.  I have only been back to Pennard once since then and it was like normal...not great, but no reason to pitch a bitch.  Truth is, I always thought the greens were better than given credit for...crusty, firm and quicker than they looked.   

There aren't many courses I have downgraded for conditions. Off the top of my head Addington comes to mind.  Absolutely terrible presentation...again and again.  I stopped playing the course despite the good architecture.

Mark

I too generally like flatter links with milder elevation changes...they are usually more playable and an easier walk.  One of the last times I played Pennard they were trying to create "fairway definition"...which is another way of saying higher rough to make the short areas look more obviously like fairways.  The end result was the bounces from the crazy land ended up in rough rather than what was previously just bad approach angle lies.  That style of presentation simply has no place for a property like Pennard.  I think I have been back once since. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Total no brainer that Royal Porthcawl is a better golf course than Pennard.


Pennard is fun and quirky, plus the cow shit conditions ruin it for most. There are some great holes and a few not so good.


There are a lot of good golf courses in the Swansea area, just remember Machnys has taken a lot of the members away from the old fashioned clubs. Some of the ones WE all like are begged out financially. Most people want a good fair test of golf, good greens, tees, fairways, bunkers.