[Josh Tarble]

Crystal Downs - 12 would be the leading candidate for me. 

That's the one for me too.  Just not really an appealing hole, especially with those stupid apple trees down the left (if they're still there).


Although at Crystal every green is so good it's hard for any hole to be THAT bad.

[Rich Goodale]

Currently the 3rd at Dornoch is clearly he worst hole, but that's just because the powers that be chose to change it c. 5 years ago.  Big mistake.  Once they get a hold of the 7th and 8th (as they plan to) there will be some competition.....

[John Kavanaugh]

I never understood the greatness of Sand Hills 17th. Hit, putt, move on.

[Jon Wiggett]

I like the 8th and 9th at TOC. They offer a slight change of pace and how hard the 8th is is certainly very hole location and weather related. Last time I played it in February it was a very tough par to get.


I think to many here are looking at the holes in isolation and failing to consider what they bring to the whole rhythm and feel of the round/course.


As to Dornoch, Brad the 7th is an excellent hole with a super subtle green so one of the better ones for me. It gives not only a change of place in its elevated setting but also a relief from the raised green battering administered by the previous holes. I have never really been too keen on the par 3s as a set as they only ask the same question. If there was one thing the club should do to enhance the course it is fill in the bunker in front of the 10th to allow the run up shot.


Rich, I too fear what might result from tampering with 7 and 8.


Jon

[Tommy Williamsen]

I never understood the greatness of Sand Hills 17th. Hit, putt, move on.

You're a better player than I am. I spent a week there and hit the green only half the time. Pretty small green and pretty big penalty for missing it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tommy,


I certainly didn't hit the green each time I played it either. I just don't recall any strategy under any circumstance where middle of the green wouldn't be the best play. I also don't know why or how a great hole could be defined or even have an abandoned tee worth checking out. I wish I had never seen that tee. In all seriousness, what is great about the hole?

[Steve_Lovett]

Pinehurst #2, The 3rd holes is probably the best drive and pitch hole I've ever played.  It is one of the best if not the best hole on the course IMO.

Awesome, so what is your "least great hole" at #2?

Other options at #2 might be #8 as a par five...but I still love that green complex...#10 is on the benign side of things, and doesn't have a severe green like most other holes.

As for the third hole, the "best drive-and-pitch you have played?"  You need to get out more!    Like many of the others I mentioned above, #3 is not a bad hole, just the "least great" for me at #2.  Without the "drive the green" option you might get by putting the tees way up for a round in the US Open, it's just a layup to miss the fairway bunkers, and a short iron.

I must say that I agree with Ben on this one. The 3rd is an exceptional short par-4 hole in my opinion, requiring a thoughtful decision off the tee and a great deal of precision on the approach.


#10 at Pinehurst is a wonderful hole and when the greens are speedy it can be treacherous. The 8th hole is probably one of the least-great, but the green is special. If I had to choose I'd say the 6th, 11th, and 15th are maybe the three holes at Pinehurst #2 that inspire me the least - but all are still very fine in their own right. I wouldn't say there is a clear "least good" hole at #2.

[Tom_Doak]

Pinehurst #2, The 3rd holes is probably the best drive and pitch hole I've ever played.  It is one of the best if not the best hole on the course IMO.

Awesome, so what is your "least great hole" at #2?

For me, the worst hole on Pinehurst #2 was clearly the seventh.  I've only played it once since the changes, and I guess it's better than it was, but that would still be my vote.  The fourth hole would be my next choice, as just kind of dull compared to the rest.  The 8th, 10th, and 11th are actually three of my favorite holes there.

[Mike_Clayton]

Jason,


MacKenzie supposedly left that strip of rough 50 yards short of the 15th green at Royal Melbourne as a reminder of how bad golf architecture used to be.

[Niall C]

Dornoch...#7, not a bad hole, just a long, not terribly exciting hole.  I know there are plans afoot to someday move this hole closer to the edge of the cliff and clear the gorse on the right...this may improve it, but its a big change for a hole that's been there for a long time.  #1 is also not awe-inspiring.

Brad

Interesting comments on RD. I think sometimes I could be accused of being too critical of RD but then if you are comparing it to the best in the world I think you should judge it with a critical eye. That said, I can understand your comments on the 7th even if I don't totally agree with you. It is a link hole and it isn't blessed with either the turf or the views of the lower holes. In that respect it is a bit like Hawklaw at Cruden Bay. Neither hole had/has much strategy to it although changes at CB and proposed changes at RD, both by MacKenzie Ebert, to bring the greens closer to the edge may/will change that. Like others however I'll miss the 7th green if it goes because I too think it one of the best on the course.

The first hole however I think one of the best on the course if you consider it in the context of being the opening hole. I recall playing it in an alternative shot comp with David Tepper when the hole position was in the back left dip/swale. I'm sure David won't mind me saying we made a hash of it, mainly down to me, but from then on I've had a higher regard for the hole and enjoyed every birdie (it has been known !) or par achieved on it.

Niall

[Carl Rogers]

On my 1 trip to Bandon in 2011, playing Pacific Dunes 3 times, I thought that PD No. 9 was a small let down. Probably because I thougth that PD no. 7 & no. 8 were so terrific.  I think that the double green option was a brilliant way to spice up the least good hole. I find the up and over tee shot awkward and the approach shot to either green a little and I mean only a little mundane.


No.12 & no. 15 at PD are welcome breathers after the over the top experience at the ocean.  Maybe I should at look no. 9 that way.

I need to play Pinehurst No. 2 again to develop an opinion.

[Jon Wiggett]

Carl,


is PD no.9 a 'small let down' or 'terrific'? I cannot see how it can be both.


Jon

[Tom_Doak]

Carl,


is PD no.9 a 'small let down' or 'terrific'? I cannot see how it can be both.


Jon

The second part of his statement must have been a typo on the hole numbers.


For me, though, #9 at Pacific is one of the better holes.  I would not have thought so with only the right-hand green; the tee shot is awkward for that one, as you want to hit something that will stay up on the top of the fairway and not roll down the slope to the left.  The cool part about adding the left-hand green is that the tee shot plays completely differently over the same ground ... when that green's in play, you want to hit a rope hook and take the slope for all it's worth.  It's neat to have two versions of the same hole.  [And I think the lower green there is one of the coolest on the course; the contours are almost completely natural.]

[Sean_A]

Royal Dornoch:

#7...long, unattractive slog, but a good green

#15...nothing special as a short 4...green way too big for the job...benfits long hitters in treating this like a par 3

#16 just a silly hole using a dubious bit of the property and silly man-made additions around the green

St. Andrews:

Ya have to choose one of the six opening holes..at least...all are too similar to be outstanding...doesn't matter which one, but as a set of holes there is definitely something wanting

#9 dull, flat...birdie opportunity, but since when is a dull, flat birdie opportunity make it special?

Muirfield...too many holes to mention which are not special and can be seen at any number of places

Ballybunion

#s 4 & 5...not much happening land eating par 5s...in fact the 5s at Ballyb are not anything close to stellar set

Merion

#2..straight-away par 5...rather blah

#4 really dislike the sand and water combo

#18 one of the most over-rated holes in golf...just a banger hole of good quality...there are thousands of holes of similar quality

Ciao

[Paul Rudovsky]

Interesting question and responses which i just quickly read through.  Have two comments:


1.  amazed that no one (at least per my quick reading) mentioned #18 at Cypress


2.  while question of worst hole on a 10 course is interesting, may not be relevant.  I think a course is a 10 because of its "whole", not just the sum of the individual holes.  And, I have usually loved the architectural trick of placing an easy wide open hole in the middle of a tough course...very often, the better player loses concentration and focus because the hole is so open, and the resulting bogey on an "easy" hole is at least semi-devastating.

[Ronald Montesano]

I chuckled at the first few, call-and-response exchanges. This is a simple premise. Every course has a least-good hole. A tie, perhaps, so we flip a coin. As indicated in the opener, it's not saying that a hole is unfortunately designed; rather, it is the least of a good lot.


The advanced class, the one to which all the brightest minds are appointed, has a student known to be the least advanced of all. She/He might have more enthusiasm, more interest, more real-world application of the material than all the rest combined, but in terms of raw scores, them's the breaks.


When we designate a hole as least good, keep that student in mind. Here you may take my candidates with a fine grain of salt.


Pinehurst #2-6th hole  (played)
Merion East-12th hole  (played and spectated)
Pacific Dunes-10th hole  (played)
Shinnecock Hills-8th hole  (spectated)
National GLA-13th hole  (spectated)
St. Andrews Old-18th hole (played)

[Jason Topp]

Jason,


MacKenzie supposedly left that strip of rough 50 yards short of the 15th green at Royal Melbourne as a reminder of how bad golf architecture used to be.

If true - that is very funny.  If not true - still very funny.

[Tom_Doak]

Jason,


MacKenzie supposedly left that strip of rough 50 yards short of the 15th green at Royal Melbourne as a reminder of how bad golf architecture used to be.

If true - that is very funny.  If not true - still very funny.

It's absolutely true.  He cited the story in his book, and it's been cited in the club history at Royal Melbourne, too.


So when it came to advising them on changes to that hole -- we've changed some of the fairway bunkering -- I advised that they should leave that feature alone, because of the history of it.

[Carl Rogers]

Jason,


MacKenzie supposedly left that strip of rough 50 yards short of the 15th green at Royal Melbourne as a reminder of how bad golf architecture used to be.

If true - that is very funny.  If not true - still very funny.

I meant to say 7 & 8, will correct.

[Kyle Henderson]

Of those I have played, my votes for the least compelling holes are:

Royal Dornoch: 7
St. Andrews: 10
Muirfield: 11
Crystal Downs: 16 (despite Sir Doak's rebuttal)
Sand Hills: 12
Cypress Point: 1
Pacific Dunes: 8
Royal Melbourne (West): 1

[Tom_Doak]

Pacific Dunes: 8

You're due another rebuttal here.  If that's the least compelling hole at Pacific Dunes, then it's right up there with Pine Valley for not having any bad holes.

[Michael Felton]

I haven't played a whole lot of the 10s, but at Pine Valley, I think 11 is the only hole that isn't all world in my book. It's just very good.

[Gib_Papazian]

Uncle George (and I, believe it or not) identified two really poor modifications on NGLA that essentially invalidated MacDonald's core strategy. We both hated the changes enough to both play from the location of the original tee - putting aside what I pointed out to Professor Olson about one of the green complexes (also on one of the offending remodel gaffes).

Let's see who has been paying attention . . . . . Tom Doak is NOT allowed to respond immediately because we discussed this with George over a dram or two when Old Mac opened.

Selah.

P.S. The last time I played a whole round there, we played the original tees because the learned architect I was with could not figure out why "something is just not right" from the current tees.

[James Brown]

Let's see...I have played all of these except for Sand Hills and Royal Melbourne...

Dornoch...#7, not a bad hole, just a long, not terribly exciting hole.  I know there are plans afoot to someday move this hole closer to the edge of the cliff and clear the gorse on the right...this may improve it, but its a big change for a hole that's been there for a long time.  #1 is also not awe-inspiring.

Muirfield....#1?  Minimal hazards, just keep it out of the long grass.

Ballybunion...has to be one of 4-5-6....inland, against the cottages...#6 would seem to fit with the odd OB jutting in, but it has an ocean backdrop.

Shinny...#8 is the best I can come up with.

NGLA...Really struggled here as I just love each hole...maybe #1 or #11?

Merion...#7?  Hard by the chainlink fence and the backyards...#12 gets weird when the green is too fast.

Pinehurst #2...For me it's the third hole, as I think it's too long to be drivable for 99% of players, so it just a benign drive-and-pitch, and unfortunately the only short par four on the course.

Crystal Downs...#11 because the green may be too severe for the speed...but otherwise #16.

Cypress...#4...again not a bad hole, just "least great."

Pac Dunes...another major struggle...8/12/15 are the candidates perhaps?...my one weekend there was almost 11 years ago!

Dornoch #7 has a really nice green.

[James Brown]

Pinehurst #2, The 3rd holes is probably the best drive and pitch hole I've ever played.  It is one of the best if not the best hole on the course IMO.

Awesome, so what is your "least great hole" at #2?

For me, the worst hole on Pinehurst #2 was clearly the seventh.  I've only played it once since the changes, and I guess it's better than it was, but that would still be my vote.  The fourth hole would be my next choice, as just kind of dull compared to the rest.  The 8th, 10th, and 11th are actually three of my favorite holes there.

#7 puts a huge premium on a good tee shot down the far right side.  Great fun hole.


#11 would be my choice for weakest. 

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