Design Associate Needed

[Mike_Young]

Ever wonder why some defect from regular attendance on this site and choose to spend more time "lounging" .....well here is a great example, nit picking when somebody is opening the door for somebody in what is a rare opportunity in this economy.
I swear never known anywhere ,where so many just want to nit pick and complain...
Headed to my lounge to watch basketball

Exactly!

Agreed. It's Ran's site, but for me, the hiring of golf course architects and/or associates would add to the credibility of the site.


I have given the needle to Tom Doak on occasion, and this would seem to be an opportunity to thank him for his contributions over the years.


Thanks Tom.

Michael,

I don't know about that...wouldn't it be sort of like a baseball team fan club putting up a notice for players?  Speaking only for myself, I have found it is much easier to subcontract any drafting, renderings I might need to the local university students.  I'm not going to do anything that requires a bid so I don't have to do power points and I have found that it is hard to promise a person more than a year of work in the modern golf economy.  Now, hiring and keeping guys who can operate machines and understand what you want is a totally different matter.  Having someone clean up basic drawings is a commodity.

[Ben Malach]

Mike,


If you need any rendering or CAD work let me know I would be happy to do it for you for a very reasonable fee.

[Jon Wiggett]

You'd get hundreds for this particular job  offer, Jon.


Ok, so Richard's looking for a cad-jockey but it's a door open and there aren't many opportunities. And anyway, no designer I've known has ever employed someone primarily on their understanding of strategy and the intricacies of design philosophies. Associates are needed because they are good at graphics or they are good at shaping, dependent on business model. They can grow in to the other stuff after that and only then if the principal is a selfless type of dude.

Ally,


what is the relevance of this to my post If you are going to reply to a post of mine then at least be relevant to what is written in that post instead of stuff in other posts not mine. There are plenty of opportunities for qualified landscaper architects and civil engineers.


Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

The first sentence was the comment on your post. The next paragraph was my contribution to the thread.

[Mike Sweeney]

I don't know about that...wouldn't it be sort of like a baseball team fan club putting up a notice for players? 

Reality of our little clubhouse is people come and go, myself included. The two consistent players are Ran and Tom Doak.


Both will deny it, but they are golf "insiders". You will probably de-friend me over on FB, but so are you!! Thus, it is more than a "fan club" here at GCA.


Reality of the world is the fan clubs ARE driving decisions. We now have Rob Palenka, an agent (and much more), running a storied NBA franchise. Why? Well in part it is due to his ability to market players to those fan clubs. I do not watch much NBA other than playoffs, but I loved his news conference:


http://www.nba.com/lakers/video/teams/lakers/2017/03/11/1489195177210-170310rob-pelinka-introduction-press-conference-1282122/


At the risk of having the Board blow up, Twitter now has real influence in the world via the President's ability to go direct to his fans and circumvent the media. The "fan clubs" voted and here we are!

[jeffwarne]

No. With all due respect, if you're going to use GCA as a platform for a job advert, you need to at least comply with simple HR niceties.
Job adverts must state what you, as an employer, are looking for in a potential employee, which you've done very nicely, and then at the very least, provide a statement of what YOU are going to provide IN RETURN to potential candidates.
Your 'advert' only states what you are looking for with no mention of possible remuneration, experience gains, job benefits, pension rights and so on.
Yes, given its unique position, it's nice to use this forum as a potential source of employees, but in my opinion, you've fallen very short of any requirement of suitable information that a good candidate would require.
Good luck,
F.


PS I should say if you're looking for a pugilistic, obnoxious Scotsman, I'm probably it!

Wow!
the economy and golf course business must REALLY be booming.
Who knew a vastly shrunken industry would have candidates so picky.
I don't think I've ever known what the compensation was for the job from the job advert.(but with homework I could figure out what a fair range would be for my own qualifications and experience)
Doesn't it depend entirely upon the qualifications, abilities and experience of the candidate?
As well as the scope and scale of the job-in addition to how the candidate might fit into the firm?

[Ronald Montesano]

Giddy up.


Since when does a private company need to show transparency in hiring?


Since when should a fellow offering an employment opportunity, concern himself with disparates?


Richard, I hope that you find an associate and that the relationship is mutually beneficial.

[Thomas Dai]

Would either of these two guys stand a chance (sic)?


A) Yorkshire born Doctor and wartime surgeon with an interest in camouflage.


B) Semi-practicing solicitor/golf club Secretary.


?
😊
Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Would either of these two guys stand a chance (sic)?


A) Yorkshire born Doctor and wartime surgeon with an interest in camouflage.


B) Semi-practicing solicitor/golf club Secretary.


?
😊
Atb

Not a hope

[Richard_Mandell]

Do either of those guys know how to run a bulldozer or Autocad?  If so, they have a shot.  If they don't know Autocad, they're dead to me. 


If I don't use a smiley face, will people still understand my sarcasm?

[Mike_Young]

I don't know about that...wouldn't it be sort of like a baseball team fan club putting up a notice for players? 

Reality of our little clubhouse is people come and go, myself included. The two consistent players are Ran and Tom Doak.


Both will deny it, but they are golf "insiders". You will probably de-friend me over on FB, but so are you!! Thus, it is more than a "fan club" here at GCA.


Reality of the world is the fan clubs ARE driving decisions. We now have Rob Palenka, an agent (and much more), running a storied NBA franchise. Why? Well in part it is due to his ability to market players to those fan clubs. I do not watch much NBA other than playoffs, but I loved his news conference:


http://www.nba.com/lakers/video/teams/lakers/2017/03/11/1489195177210-170310rob-pelinka-introduction-press-conference-1282122/


At the risk of having the Board blow up, Twitter now has real influence in the world via the President's ability to go direct to his fans and circumvent the media. The "fan clubs" voted and here we are!

I would never defriend you or Michael Christenson after what we went thru in the restaurant that nite in Madison...

[Tom_Doak]

Would either of these two guys stand a chance (sic)?


A) Yorkshire born Doctor and wartime surgeon with an interest in camouflage.


B) Semi-practicing solicitor/golf club Secretary.

That's a great, and instructive, post.


In the history of hiring for the field of golf course architecture, I don't know that any new face has ever been hired for the purpose of being good at design.


Usually, the guy doing the hiring figures he's got that part covered.  What he needs is help to build the course, or to draw it, or to deal with all the stuff that gets in the way of design.


I like having people around who are have an interest in design, and are trying to become proficient at it; and I like to give them chances to contribute.  But I only have them on board if they're ready to go out and get dirty and help build one of my courses.  Nobody gets hired to stand around and jawbone ideas ... unless they are also a guy who's helping land the jobs!


So, would anybody hire Alister MacKenzie?  I don't know that they would.  Colt didn't hire him, either ... MacKenzie just kind of took over Alwoodley by virtue of having the time to be there and work on it, and then he went and made a name for himself, and eventually he joined on with Colt as a partner!  I suppose it's still possible to go that route, for anyone who has the wherewithal and the patience to try it.

[Mike_Young]

Would either of these two guys stand a chance (sic)?


A) Yorkshire born Doctor and wartime surgeon with an interest in camouflage.


B) Semi-practicing solicitor/golf club Secretary.

That's a great, and instructive, post.


In the history of hiring for the field of golf course architecture, I don't know that any new face has ever been hired for the purpose of being good at design.


Usually, the guy doing the hiring figures he's got that part covered.  What he needs is help to build the course, or to draw it, or to deal with all the stuff that gets in the way of design.


I like having people around who are have an interest in design, and are trying to become proficient at it; and I like to give them chances to contribute.  But I only have them on board if they're ready to go out and get dirty and help build one of my courses.  Nobody gets hired to stand around and jawbone ideas ... unless they are also a guy who's helping land the jobs!


So, would anybody hire Alister MacKenzie?  I don't know that they would.  Colt didn't hire him, either ... MacKenzie just kind of took over Alwoodley by virtue of having the time to be there and work on it, and then he went and made a name for himself, and eventually he joined on with Colt as a partner!  I suppose it's still possible to go that route, for anyone who has the wherewithal and the patience to try it.

I was sort of thinking the same thing.  Hell no one would have hired me so I had to sell my own first design to some dude that would trust me..pissed off a lot of archies who didn't think that should be allowed...    And even today if somebody really wants to get into it for themselves, the best way is to be able to sell someone and you can find the rest of it....

[Peter Pallotta]

TD - It's harder now than it was then  - at least I think it is. GCA (like film making and many other fields of endeavour) has gotten very sophisticated in the last few decades, ie whole schools and degres and governing bodies and the requirement for certifications and credentials etc. The brilliant outsider has less of a chance than ever. Armstrong figured it out on the bandstand, not at Berkeley; DeMille learned by making hundreds of two reelers, not at UCLA or NYU; Joseph Campbell spent the Depression living on a farm reading whatever books most interested him, and then almost single handedly created a whole new field of study; Hogan learned in the caddy yard and as a struggling pro with not enough to eat, not while on full scholarship at Houston. I know that Colt didn't hire Mackenzie, but if he were around today Colt couldn't even hire *himself*! I mean, what certified skill set or specialized training could he point to? I think in all these endeavours, the general/required level of *competence* has gone way up, but examples of true mastery and strking originality are becoming ever more rare. And now I find that I'm sounding more and more like Alan Bloom...god help me...

[John Kavanaugh]

I can name a few hobbiests from this site that have been hired by architects in various capacities. Charity cases each were they.

[Mike_Young]

GCA (like film making and many other fields of endeavour) has gotten very sophisticated in the last few decades, ie whole schools and degres and governing bodies and the requirement for certifications and credentials etc.

Peter,
GCA has no governing bodies or certifications or credentials...the desire to set such created a very dark age of GCA in my opinion..

[Sean_A]

Sure...nobody would hire Dr Mac today as a design associate...and probably that was the case back in his day..being such a cantankeous bugger!  What is funny is that as soon as Dr Mac earns a rep he tells people to only hire competent professionals....amateurs will screw up a job as sure as the sun rises.  The cheek of some people.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sure...nobody would hire Dr Mac today as a design associate...and probably that was the case back in his day..being such a cantankeous bugger!  What is funny is that as soon as Dr Mac earns a rep he tells people to only hire competent professionals....amateurs will screw up a job as sure as the sun rises.  The cheek of some people.

Amateurs ... or, GOLF PROFESSIONALS, whose ideas on design he particularly denounced.

[Tom_Doak]

TD - It's harder now than it was then  - at least I think it is. GCA (like film making and many other fields of endeavour) has gotten very sophisticated in the last few decades, ie whole schools and degres and governing bodies and the requirement for certifications and credentials etc. The brilliant outsider has less of a chance than ever. Armstrong figured it out on the bandstand, not at Berkeley; DeMille learned by making hundreds of two reelers, not at UCLA or NYU; Joseph Campbell spent the Depression living on a farm reading whatever books most interested him, and then almost single handedly created a whole new field of study; Hogan learned in the caddy yard and as a struggling pro with not enough to eat, not while on full scholarship at Houston. I know that Colt didn't hire Mackenzie, but if he were around today Colt couldn't even hire *himself*! I mean, what certified skill set or specialized training could he point to? I think in all these endeavours, the general/required level of *competence* has gone way up, but examples of true mastery and strking originality are becoming ever more rare. And now I find that I'm sounding more and more like Alan Bloom...god help me...

Peter:


I agree with your points about credentialism eating into outsiders' opportunities ... note that the two most successful guys of my generation [me and Gil Hanse] are also the two with the Ivy League degree.  It has nothing much to do with our abilities as designers, but it impresses certain people nonetheless.


I don't really think golf architecture is much more complicated now than it was in Colt and MacKenzie's day, although many of the professionals in the field do their best to MAKE it harder, and otherwise concoct barriers to entry.  It's still just a matter of going out on a piece of land and connecting the dots a certain way.  Indeed, in some ways it's easier now, as there are so many people with experience available to help a novice if he's smart about asking for help where he needs it. 


The hard part is getting noticed, and that's what leads to lots of people spending time and money seeking credentials that aren't necessary, because they're led to believe it's the only way to get into the business.  It was lucky timing for me to come along a bit before the boom, when there weren't as many aspiring golf course architects competing for attention![/me]

[Jeff_Brauer]

Peter,
GCA has no governing bodies or certifications or credentials...the desire to set such created a very dark age of GCA in my opinion..



Mike, glad to see you have come around to the truth about GCA, not that wild eyed fake news you have posted so many times before.....


Tom,


I was always told the Ivy League degree insinuated you were more likely to go into teaching rather than private practice.


In either case, its hard to get into nearly any profession. We expect 80% who get in fail within five years.  And, we expect 80% of those with some desire to get in to fail to do what is necessary, but then, blame anyone but themselves.


And, even those who are big time successes, often continue to blame others when a job doesn't go their way, rather than accepting that sometimes, the other guy is pretty good at marketing, presentation, etc., too.  There is always the presumption that the winning bid was somehow obtained via unfair practices or some unknown advantage.  When I don't get a project, I realize I didn't market, schmooze, or present well enough.


However, I don't see much evil there, as so many have succeeded from so many different backgrounds.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW, half jokingly responded that if he needed a senior designer with limited CAD skills, and on Vectorworks rather than ACAD, I could be his man!  And, he never returned my calls........

[Ian Andrew]

GCA has gotten very sophisticated in the last few decades, ie whole schools and degres and governing bodies and the requirement for certifications and credentials etc. The brilliant outsider has less of a chance than ever.

Peter,

I completely disagree.

1. There are no certifications. Others can stamp drawings and deal with technical requirements for you.
2. School has become a waste of time, since it creates so few opportunities.
3. Working on site has become the chosen path to eventually doing your own work.

That makes this profession - possible - for the brilliant outsider willing to start at the bottom.
And they are out there in droves ...

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
GCA has no governing bodies or certifications or credentials...the desire to set such created a very dark age of GCA in my opinion..
Mike, glad to see you have come around to the truth about GCA, not that wild eyed fake news you have posted so many times before.....

Jeff,
Now I was trying to be nice and now I got to fire back....
The dark age I mention above was created by a few trying to restrict trade and make it sound as if the golf course design craft was some hyped up profession....and such group continues today to promote members who have websites with no course of their own listed as their "qualifying projects" projects and some who have never designed an 18 hole course on their own.  , Also has guys working in other parts of the industry being promoted as architects etc and goes as far as to say : " When you choose an ASGCA architect, you can be certain you are hiring the best the industry has to offer." and "Our members, past and present, represent the most acclaimed and experienced design professionals in the golf industry,"   Lot of good guys but That's all promo BS.  I call all of that fake news today. 
But then there is also the real news when it comes to that type of BS...  check out the Wilmington Municipal Golf Course bid in 2014. That city had no idea they were hyping a fraternity and discriminating against many architects when it required membership in
ASGCA to bid their project.  And I'm not saying they got a bad product.  they didn't.  I'm saying they were made to think there were  governing bodies, certifications and credentials in golf design.  And that continues daily...

Cheers...

[Ben Malach]

GCA has gotten very sophisticated in the last few decades, ie whole schools and degres and governing bodies and the requirement for certifications and credentials etc. The brilliant outsider has less of a chance than ever.

Peter,

I completely disagree.

1. There are no certifications. Others can stamp drawings and deal with technical requirements for you.
2. School has become a waste of time, since it creates so few opportunities.
3. Working on site has become the chosen path to eventually doing your own work.

That makes this profession - possible - for the brilliant outsider willing to start at the bottom.
And they are out there in droves ...

Ian-


I respect your candor in disscussing this topic. You are one of the people that I looked to when choosing to start my career in GCA 5 years ago. But I think that you are giving the wrong advice here. I agree that you can learn more working on a good sites with great people than you can in class room. I have seen and felt this fist hand over the past two years of school.   But I also think it needs to be said that going to school will help you get the jobs in the field that you could not get other wise. Also I personally believe that it is beneficial to all involved that certain skills (autocad, grading, rendering, etc.) be learned in school before they are polished through working.


I also would like to state that getting a job doing construction on a project where you can learn the skills is a challenge without a degree due to visa requirements. I had to turn down a wonderful opportunity provided by a GCA as I was not able to get a visa to work without a degree or being in school for a related subject. Also finding a job on a good project without a bit of luck on your first or second go is hard as there many great young people working in this industry already and trying to break in with nothing to offer other than ideas is next to impossible.

[Joe Hancock]

Ben,


I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm the kind of guy Ian is speaking of. I didn't go to school for this, I just worked hard and have been fortunate to be shoulder to shoulder with some of the smartest in the business. I will say that at age 56, I'm not on the fast track that a younger person might desire. But, it still keeps one in the dirt and having fun.