[Tom_Doak]

Tom - honest questions, not rhetorical ones:
Given the differences in the sites that you mentioned, how *can* the courses at Streamsong be "closer architecturally" to those at Bandon than they're given credit for?
That is: in order for you/Bill to say that, don't you have to narrow the definition of architecture down to its very barest bones, ie to the theoretical/paper plans?
I do understand (and in fact have argued for) separating out the setting & the scenery from the architecture and the design.
But what I don't understand is how one can also separate out natural undulations, soils, environment, wind, grasses, and turf conditions from any talk/analysis of the "architecture".
I mean: for professionals like you and Bill, isn't a part (and maybe a big part) of your skill and talent the ability to *incorporate* those very undulations and soil properties and environmental conditions etc into the fabric of your designs?
Far from being *independent* of the architecture, aren't the differences from one site to another the very *drivers* of your particular concept/ethos/brand of architecture?
In short, what can "speaking architecturally" mean for two designers who've made their names -- and created their top flight golf courses -- mainly by honouring and utilizing a given site in its natural state?
I hope I haven't misunderstood you completely, and that I have made myself almost clear.
Peter

Peter:


Yes, a lot of architecture is taking the features of a given property, and designing golf holes around them, like the little mound in front of the 7th green at Streamsong Red, or the three little contours that hold up the left side of the landing area on the 15th at Streamsong Blue, or those great little dunes that interrupt the fairway on the 7th at Pacific Dunes.


And yet hardly anyone here ever mentions features like that, or even those golf holes!  Instead we get vague generalities about how someone prefers the setting of Bandon ... as my son would have said when he was nine and I was building Pacific Dunes, no duh!


I don't expect most posters here to analyze "architecture" in terms of routing decisions, or even to visualize what parts of the site are natural and which were created.  But the site for the first two courses at Streamsong was a great one, full of the sort of little [and big!] features that would be the making of interesting golf holes ... pretty comparable to what was available to us at Bandon, even if the wind and the playing surface are not the same.


To cite a specific example:  the 17th hole on the Blue course has gotten a lot of praise, and some posters have recognized that it's an homage to the cross-bunkered Sahara par-5 holes that A.W. Tillinghast loved to build.  Of course, I've known about those Tillinghast holes since before I ever built a course on my own, but this is only the second time I've ever built a hole like them -- because the sharp upslope in that fairway at Streamsong was just crying out for those cross bunkers!  And then I changed a piece of Tillie's design, and built the green a bit closer to those bunkers, so that a player who couldn't carry them might still reach the green with a long third shot, if he or she managed to play close enough underneath them ... which no one has ever pointed out when they praise the hole, but which was perfectly utilized by my friends Ed and Roy Vomastek when they won the Renaissance Cup there.


That's the kind of architecture I'm talking about, that I wish others would talk about.  I think that might have been what you meant when you mentioned the "theoretical / paper plans", but you'll just have to trust me that those decisions weren't made on paper!

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Tom,


In previous posts on this thread and others about Streamsong, I have described what I like, and don't like, about the courses. 


In the post that offended you, I was just reacting to another member's post comparing Bandon and Streamsong.  Is it necessary to repeat everything in every post?


I have acknowledged, repeatedly, that my opinions are unsophisticated.  I am a novice trying to learn about GCA, and my posts often ask questions of you and others (including in this thread).  Your dismissive tone is not the best way to foster interest in the field you love and to which you have contributed so much.  I realize it is your "style", but it is mine not to like it. 

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Tom,


BTW, your comment about being willing to accept fees that are a little lower but for the "sad side effects of capitalism"...it reeks of hypocrisy. 

[Kalen Braley]

If I had to guess, I doubt the owner/visionary for the Streamsong concept was ever trying to directly compete with Bandon, even if attracting similar kinds of clientele.  Given they are on opposite sides of the US and in near opposite climates, I'm guessing they were going for thier own thing....but maybe they were looking to be Bandon of the East

[Mark Saltzman]

Is there a hole-by-hole Streamsong Black discussion somewhere on GCA? Or even a general thread discussing thoughts on the course? Can't seem to find one... and discussion on this thread is very limited

[Tom_Doak]

BTW, your comment about being willing to accept fees that are a little lower but for the "sad side effects of capitalism"...it reeks of hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy?

I don't know what you do for a living, or how much of it you do pro-bono, but since you don't know the details of my contracts you should probably re-think this bullshit criticism.  I've done lots of projects at below-market prices because they were meaningful to me.  And my clients for my most famous courses have made 100x more profit out of them than I did.

[George Pazin]

Tom,


BTW, your comment about being willing to accept fees that are a little lower but for the "sad side effects of capitalism"...it reeks of hypocrisy.

Swing and a miss. Hopefully you're not an Econ professor...


-----


Tom, the only thing I'll say is I'd love to read the sort of detail you note about the 17th in more reviews of any course on here, but the number of people who notice them can't be much more than single digits. I know I'd never pick up on such a thing. That's where the rest of us are relying on the few to make such observations, so we can learn more. I wish it would happen more often, but I'm content to find it only rarely.

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Tom,


Look in the mirror.  You spent your talents, which are formidable, designing playgrounds for rich, white men...including me.  (And I admit I love them.)  But social commentary on the ills of capitalism?  You really ought to avoid it.


You are thin-skinned, aren't you?

[Kalen Braley]

Glen,


I think you got this all twisted.  He clearly gave his brief remark in direct context to how it affects the golf building biz... not a long winded social commentary.


P.S.  If anyone is coming off as defensive/sensitive in this thing, its you my friend...

[George Pazin]

Glen,


I think you got this all twisted.  He clearly gave his brief remark in direct context to how it affects the golf building biz... not a long winded social commentary.


P.S.  If anyone is coming off as defensive/sensitive in this thing, its you my friend...

+1

[Tom_Doak]

Is there a hole-by-hole Streamsong Black discussion somewhere on GCA? Or even a general thread discussing thoughts on the course? Can't seem to find one... and discussion on this thread is very limited

Indeed, discussion on this thread is very limited.  I'll start a different one.

[Bill Brightly]

I really dislike entering into comparisons of Bandon and Streamsong because Bandon has two distinct advantages: it's setting on an ocean and fescue grass. Perhaps that gives PD two points higher on the Doak scale, but that is not the case with BT and OM.


I love all the courses at Bandon but to suggest that the golf holes at all three courses at Streamsong can't compete from a design standpoint is not just unfair, it is  also not true. There a PLENTY of really great golf holes at SS and a number lesser holes, or controversial holes, at Bandon. I might give a slight edge to BT over SS Red, but it is very close. That is a fair comparison because neither course is on the ocean. I think C & C's 12th hole at the Red is superb with the options presented on the tee, for example. And I think all of the short par 4's are better holes than BT #14.


But SS really is not competing with Bandon. Rather, SS is competing for northeast US golfers looking to get away for a golf trip. In that respect, SS offers a HUGE advantage: we can fly in the morning and be on the course after lunch, and play a round on our get away date and catch a flight home.


If you are an architecture geek, there is PLENTY at SS to discuss and debate; I can't think of another place open to the public that you can play in the winter on the East coast that comes close.

[Kalen Braley]

Bill,


I think an old fashioned head to head match play may be in order here, like the old days.


Blue vs Red
Blue vs Black
Black vs Red. 


Those are 3 matchups I wouldn't mind seeing..


P.S.  That sounds like a pretty pricey one day, 18 hole golf excursion that only a 1%er could appreciate!! 

[JMEvensky]

Tom, the only thing I'll say is I'd love to read the sort of detail you note about the 17th in more reviews of any course on here, but the number of people who notice them can't be much more than single digits. I know I'd never pick up on such a thing. That's where the rest of us are relying on the few to make such observations, so we can learn more. I wish it would happen more often, but I'm content to find it only rarely.

I also like to read about, and sometimes notice, the inside baseball of design--so there are at least 2 of us.

[Steve Lang]

TD, Its too bad the affordable Black Forest is barely surviving and HighPointe is now a hops farm... 


My simple take-aways from Streamsong plays during the Dixie Cup were:


1. The greens looked faster than they played, Blue's were most treacherous and since i'm a masochist on such matters, I loved them.  I putted well on all 3 courses, conditions post hurricane pretty good.  I don't think I had ever seen sprinkler heads inside greens before, but no real impact experienced on the big Black acreage...


2. Approaches to greens on Red were the most in your face, i.e., pin placements I saw were, here I am... hit the golf shot if you can, I can see such similar at Bandon Trails.  Caddy indispensable for approaches at Black due to green sizes.  A daily pin chart would be nice to aid the eye and address some of the Black and Blue's synoptic subterfuge. 


3.  Like at Forest Dunes, Dismal, Bandon, Ballyneal or any golfing destination, a little research, aerial study, and quick notes go a long way to reducing the uncertainty seen in play on the ground, but for this unprofessional, I seem to ignore that info after 4-5 holes, preferring to play, interact, and learn as I go, dancing with the swing I brought...   I think it'd take more plays to better learn the Blue than the Black or Red. 


4.  Tee challenges on 1 shooters Blue and Red halve,  Black only loses 1 & 0


5.  Tee views on 2 & 3 shooters, I can only say that my 2-wood off the deck or barely teed up was the go-to safe controlled play on many shorter holes, its kinda nice staying away from trouble, but one doesn't travel to a golf destination to lay up...  I remember more raw visual driver challenge on Red, then Blue psyops, then Black edginess, and bad swings notwithstanding, how can one not hit those fairways?


6.   On the flippant side, the Red's BBQ based halfway house wins 3&2.


So, after playing the Black the best, feeling the most golfshot challenged by the Red, and initially most outsmarted by the Blue, I have no objection to playing them all again and not not making either a type I false positive or type II false negative error if I don't have to. 


When I return, I'll play them in Black, Red, and then Blue order., maybe Blue, Black, Red, & Blue :<))

[Bill Brightly]

So, after playing the Black the best, feeling the most golfshot challenged by the Red, and initially most outsmarted by the Blue, I have no objection to playing them all again and not not making either a type I false positive or type II false negative error if I don't have to. 

Steve, I agree 100% with this statement, so I wonder where you would put the Black in this type of analysis?

[Steve Lang]

Bill,


I really liked playing the Black, first time (only 11 holes) and then after 2nd time with a caddy... liked more, shooting 81 with a couple of  3 putts, a handful of shots better than Red or Blue's first full exposures. 


Its easy to reject something that should be accepted, everyone's entitled to their opinion blackballing the Black, but that's silly IMHO.  If they perhaps convert some mowed green to fringe, opinions will change and of course some will pine for the original design.   My bottom line is not accepting something I should reject, so only way around that is not making a decision and/or collecting more info, as mentioned.  Once one sees the Black's green sizes and charts them out or gives them their due respect, their problems or challenges are not the end of the world.. play on!


Its certainly no big friggin deal that a high capper can't handle some of the Black's approach shots... e.g., laying up to short game it, or working ball spin to roll out or check up as needed or even just plain aiming it successfully, so if folks are then freaking out on long crazy putts it probably is their Waterloo for scoring, if that's their metric for liking a course...


HAPPY TO HAVE THE BLACK AT SS, and a heck of a lot easier to transit there than Bandon will ever be.


HAPPY NEW YEAR   

[JBovay]

All this discussion about the greens at Streamsong Black has really piqued my interest.


But I think some clarification is in order. In Brad Klein's review on Golfweek.com in October, he wrote that little green dots defined the greens proper. Has the resort abandoned that delineation? Can the ball be marked on all of the shortest grass? Is chipping prohibited on the shortest grass?


If some of the shortest grass is still defined as non-green, I don't see what the controversy is about. When I played Rustic Canyon in 2013, the maintenance meld was similar but not identical, with dashed lines indicating the edges of the greens proper.

[Tom_Doak]

In Brad Klein's review on Golfweek.com in October, he wrote that little green dots defined the greens proper. Has the resort abandoned that delineation? Can the ball be marked on all of the shortest grass? Is chipping prohibited on the shortest grass?

If some of the shortest grass is still defined as non-green, I don't see what the controversy is about.

I did not notice any little green dots, and my caddie made no mention of them.


The mini-verde on the greens is so tight that hitting a pitch shot from it would be pretty hard to do, it was not something that I considered.  Chipping with a 7-iron, maybe.


I'm told the expanded collars were decided upon to keep the fairway grass from creeping into and overtaking the greens, and that within a few years most of these areas will have converted to Celebration.  [At which point, they'll have the problem they were trying to avoid by doing this.]  Southern grasses are weird !

[MCirba]

Tom,


The little green dots exist but I just ignored them.  Sometimes sprinkler heads were in the "greencut" areas so that could be a consideration but with firm and fast conditions I like to take putter from 50 yards anyway so perhaps I wasn't as bothered as some might be.

[Mark Saltzman]

Tom,


The little green dots exist but I just ignored them.  Sometimes sprinkler heads were in the "greencut" areas so that could be a consideration but with firm and fast conditions I like to take putter from 50 yards anyway so perhaps I wasn't as bothered as some might be.

I didn’t see any green dots last week... maybe they’ve now done away with them?

[Lou_Duran]

Re: the dots, they were faint, but still there inside most sprinkler and valve heads in early October.  I was told by a caddie and others that they were the demarcation of the fringe and green, and a familiar edge would eventually appear when they adjusted the cutting heights.  I was later told by a senior member of the pro shop staff that this was not the case, that the areas outside of the dots mowed to green height are part of the green.  If final, a ball on the green can be moved if a sprinkler head interferes (ball, stance, or line), but short game options are more limited (not many of us will hit a flop shot or risk taking a divot on the green, even if we could execute it on such tight lies).

[Mark_Fine]

Can someone here comment on the green edges at Streamsong Black?  I have only played the Blue and the Red but a friend just played The Black and said he never saw green edges like those at The Black?  He said they have put colored dots on the edges of the greens to help determine "the edges of the greens" (I presume for rules purposes).  He said it is very hard to tell if you are on the green or not in many situations along the edges. 

[John Kavanaugh]

It's not difficult at all if you have half a brain. I recall on the 11th just being off the green and hitting a flop shot that I would never attempt if I was on the green. I was obviously off the green.

[Brad Tufts]

Selfishly, I still would love a photo tour of the Black!!

We have a full-on tour of ANGC from its beginning, but not a very buzzworthy course that 25 GCAers played last fall!

Sorry, rant over...

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