Some Streamsong Black Pics

[MCirba]

In reference to the discussion about all sand based, minimalist styled courses looking the same I think we've now come full circle in the modern golden age of architecture.

The King is Dead.

Long Live The King.

Let's Kill the King.

[Kalen Braley]

I missed this thread when it came out in March.  9 months later do we have a better feel for how the 3 courses stack up?


I would love to get to Streamsong, and my wife's company is based in Tampa, which she has to travel to 3-4 times per  year.  Perhaps it'll be sooner than later


P.S.  I have a feeling all of these courses are excellent and this thread is the equivilant of trying to figure out which girl is the hottest, between 3 very attractive ones.

[Brian Finn]

I have a feeling all of these courses are excellent and this thread is the equivalent of trying to figure out which girl is the hottest, between 3 very attractive ones.

In my view, this is the case.  Obviously, everyone has their own individual preferences, but all three of these courses are very good, and different enough to make playing all three on each visit compelling.  You may prefer certain features of one over another, but as a lover of the game and course architecture, you'd gladly play all many times.

[Steve Lang]

I missed this thread when it came out in March.  9 months later do we have a better feel for how the 3 courses stack up?

Kalen,


At three months, yeh, many have a good feel.   You should have gone to the 2017 Dixie Cup in September and enjoyed the Black's coming out party with us!

[Thomas Dai]

Could someone could please post some Streamsong Black course photos?
Thanks in anticipation.

atb

[Cal Seifert]

From the No Laying Up website

[Kalen Braley]

I missed this thread when it came out in March.  9 months later do we have a better feel for how the 3 courses stack up?

Kalen,


At three months, yeh, many have a good feel.   You should have gone to the 2017 Dixie Cup in September and enjoyed the Black's coming out party with us!

Since this group is hell bent on quibbling over which girl is the hottest...what was the general consensus at Dixie cup?


Black, Blue, or Red?


P.S.  I can't believe the owners passed over the chance of naming the 3rd course the White for the obvious patriotic effect.  Would have got Trumps' interest I'm guessing. 

[MCirba]

One of the more dramatic holes at Streamsong Black is the Gibraltar-like, par three 5th, which can play up to 211 yards from the back tee.   The flagstick is viewable to the right of the golfers approaching the skyline green.

Although it may appear penal from this picture, virtually every hole offers plenty of room to navigate and the Slope Rating from the tips is only 135.

[Andy Johnson]

Here are a few, FYI this was an "authorized drone flight"


18th - par 5



15 tee & green - short par 3








9 & 2 green



7 (left) & 9 (right) green





10th green





Behind 17 par 3 green

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

All three courses are excellent, and I thoroughly enjoyed my trip to Streamsong.  Each course has a slightly different flavor.  Which is best?  I can't say with any confidence, especially after playing only one round on each.  I kind of lean toward Blue, but...


On all three courses, the playing surfaces are excellent.  The greens, in particular, are immaculate and appropriately firm.


One reservation: the pace of the greens on all three course is too quick given their undulation.  The designers' efforts to make them playable for a wide range of players is undermined by the speed of the greens.  Putting up and over humps when the greens are that fast requires exceptional skill.  Most players will have lots of three putt greens and some four putts.



Red is tightest off the tee.  There are some tee shots that are visually intimidating, although there is in fact a fair amount of room.  False fronts feature prominently on greens, making for some difficult pitches. 


Blue has wonderful rolling terrain and felt more like Coore and Crenshaw's Sand Valley than does Streamsong Red.  Blue does not feel confining off the tee, although there is usually a distinct right and wrong side of the fairway.   


Black is the most open of the three courses, but I found the greens to be even more challenging than Red and Blue.  They are huge and include some extraordinary humps and swales.  As I mentioned in another post, Gil Hanse originally planned that many of the largest humps would be off the green, not internal to the green.  The greens were then expanded to incorporate the humps.  I think the course would be better if they went back to Hanse's original plan.

[Bill Brightly]

Gil Hanse originally planned that many of the largest humps would be off the green, not internal to the green.  The greens were then expanded to incorporate the humps.  I think the course would be better if they went back to Hanse's original plan.

Interesting, I had not read that before. I enjoyed the Black very much but felt a couple of the greens were over the top; enough that I would not be surprised if these get re-worked. I think they'll become lightning points. Just my pure guess after three rounds on the Black.

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting, I had not read that before. I enjoyed the Black very much but felt a couple of the greens were over the top; enough that I would not be surprised if these get re-worked. I think they'll become lightning points. Just my pure guess after three rounds on the Black.

I had heard from a couple of sources that there were 2-3 particular greens that everyone would complain about, but I was not able to identify immediately which those were.  [I suspect the short par-4 14th is one of them, but Gil said the hole location the day I played was in a spot where it was never intended to be.  That green reminded me a bit of the 12th on The Loop (Red), which is right at the edge of being too severe for my own tastes.  Interestingly, both holes are drivable par-4's.] 


There were a lot of potentially "unfair" putts if you wound up in a certain spot with the flag in a certain other spot; but on most holes, there was plenty of room to stay below the hole.  #5 might be an exception to that rule, as a 10-foot deep bunker is not a workable option to deliberately miss.

[MCirba]

For what it's worth, I've been battling a case of the yips most of the year but I did not have a single three-putt on the Black course.


I also had an excellent caddie.

[Thomas Dai]

The 9th green appears intriguing. Bit like someone made a plasticine model of an upturned saucer and then someone else pushed the heel of their hand into the middle of it!


I wonder about long term maintenance....eg trees and foliage between the 18th fairway and the water in posted photo. I can imagine quite a bit of scrub and brush developing if the more open areas are not kept clear. Is scrub growth quick in Florida’s climate?


Atb

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Tom,


I agree that there is room to stay below the hole on Black's greens and being below the hole makes a big difference.  The greens exemplify "roominess."  Playing the course a second or third time would no doubt be easier than the first time around.


A question though:  How do such undulating, fast greens fit with the goal of making a course enjoyable for a wide range of players?  Even if a mid-handicapper knows where to play (eg a caddie tells him), getting to the proper location consistently may require a level of control beyond his ability.   Once above the hole...or worse, with a large hump between him and the hole...the mid-handicapper is going to struggle on Black's greens.  Downhill, down grain...and downwind!...they are challenging.


When confronted by such greens, I embrace the challenge and don't worry about what I shoot.  I enjoy trying to figure them out, and when my guess at the line doesn't work out I will even pick up.  Who cares?  But some people don't consider that golf.  And they putt, putt, putt...and putt...away.

[Michael Dugger]

It's a testament to how far we've come that conversations are breaking out over whose course is preferred between Dook, C&C and Hanse. 

Just sayin'

[Bill Brightly]

Interesting, I had not read that before. I enjoyed the Black very much but felt a couple of the greens were over the top; enough that I would not be surprised if these get re-worked. I think they'll become lightning points. Just my pure guess after three rounds on the Black.

I had heard from a couple of sources that there were 2-3 particular greens that everyone would complain about, but I was not able to identify immediately which those were.  [I suspect the short par-4 14th is one of them, but Gil said the hole location the day I played was in a spot where it was never intended to be.  That green reminded me a bit of the 12th on The Loop (Red), which is right at the edge of being too severe for my own tastes.  Interestingly, both holes are drivable par-4's.] 


There were a lot of potentially "unfair" putts if you wound up in a certain spot with the flag in a certain other spot; but on most holes, there was plenty of room to stay below the hole.  #5 might be an exception to that rule, as a 10-foot deep bunker is not a workable option to deliberately miss.

The short 14th is definitely one; it is one the caddies seemed to think was over the top. But I'll say this: the next time I play this hole I am NOT going for the green, even though it is one I can reach from the tee. Approaches from likely misses in the sand, high grass or even fairway down in the swale are brutal. So I like the hole from this perspective; it really tempts the player to make a dumb decision on the tee.


Given the firmness of the greens, getting approach shots to stay in the proper section, sometimes even on the green, is really hard. I'm not one to complain about "unfair" putts. I get it: you need to play to the proper section. I'm just saying that I found that to be REALLY difficult on the Black given the combination of contour and green firmness. I think a tad less of one or the other would dramatically reduce what I think will be a common reaction to the Black.

[Joel_Stewart]

Quite the stretch to draw that conclusion from this: "I spoke with an industry executive yesterday who played it last week.  He felt it was the best course at Streamsong which would make him the 2nd person I've spoken with voice this opinion."

I'd be fine if Joel Stewart had opined on the course from actual first-hand experience, but he did not; he quoted an anonymous industry executive, and another unnamed source.  That's exactly how journalism works in D.C. and N.Y. nowadays.

Now that I have played it I will disagree with this industry executive. 


I liked the back nine more than the front but overall there are 18 solid holes.  I would say there are 4 really great holes and the closing 3 holes are memorable but the 17th green was wickedly angled from left to right.


I'm baffled how Gil could build such severe greens on a resort course?  I played with a father & son from Toronto who each 3 putted at least half the holes. I just don't see many having fun on the Black. Both pocketed their balls on 3 or 4 holes. I played pretty well but it's a grind. Green speeds are probably 10 but going downhill on those slopes maybe 13 or 14?


The short par 4 14th (which has no green side bunkers) is one of the craziest greens you'll ever see.  IMHO is completely unfair. There is no place to put a pin and if you're putting downhill, forget it!


They apparently used Celebration Bermuda grass on the Black unlike the Red and Blue.  The ball doesn't sit up like most Bermuda grass.


I was told that before construction they discovered that most of the site was actually clay.  As a result they trucked in the sand from a few miles away which totaled almost 1 million yards and blew the budget. Originally the clubhouse was supposed to have a locker room so they saved money by eliminating that.


I personally rank the courses Blue, Black and Red but everyone has a different idea.

[Mike Hendren]

In the spirit of frank commentary:   In my opinion, Tom Doak, Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are architectural geniuses.  That said, I  didn't find as much ingenious design on my one and only trip to Streamsong as most of you apparently did, though I enjoyed their courses immensely and consider them quite good.    (I know - it's only one play and great architecture requires hundreds of rounds in diverse conditions to fully grasp every nuanced element.)  Perhaps Gil Hanse is well on his way, but I can't fathom returning to Streamsong for a repeat shot at the Blue and Red and an initial play of the Black. 

If I'm hopping a plane I'm headed back to Bandon for the third time as Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails alone trump the Streamsong courses - perhaps by two full points or more each in my still sophomoric opinion.  I also want another shot at Old Macdonald when I'm not dog-tired.   If I am jonesing for anything new it's the par three course at Bandon. 

Just stirring up a tad on a cold December day.

Mike

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - an aside, re your reference to great architecture revealing itself only after multiple plays:

That can't be true anymore, if it ever was. Or perhaps better: no one actually *believes* that it's true anymore.

It's very cold here too...

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Michael H,


I think the courses at Streamsong are excellent, but I too prefer Bandon.  I prefer Pac Dunes and Bandon Trails to Streamsong Blue and Red.  Not particularly close IMHO.  And I prefer Old Mac to Streamsong Black.  And Bandon Dunes is the cherry on top!


New can be very good, as I think Streamsong is, but it is not necessarily better.  The Bandon v Streamsong comparison is not parrticularly close...in my opinion.


Not only does Bandon have that glorious setting, I prefer the style and service at Bandon.


Despite all that, I would not turn down an opportunity to return to Streamsong!  Variety is good too.

[Tom_Doak]

I think the courses at Streamsong are excellent, but I too prefer Bandon.  I prefer Pac Dunes and Bandon Trails to Streamsong Blue and Red.  Not particularly close IMHO.  And I prefer Old Mac to Streamsong Black.  And Bandon Dunes is the cherry on top!

New can be very good, as I think Streamsong is, but it is not necessarily better.  The Bandon v Streamsong comparison is not parrticularly close...in my opinion.

Not only does Bandon have that glorious setting, I prefer the style and service at Bandon.

Setting ... style ... service.  What does any of that have to do with the golf?


In many ways I sympathize with Rich Mack, our client at Streamsong.  No matter how well Streamsong's courses have turned out, they're doomed to be compared with our very best work, in a setting that can't be equaled by any inland site, especially not in the middle of Florida.


Do I think Streamsong Blue is really as good as Pacific Dunes?  No, I don't.  [But then, I've only rated 15 courses in the world at the same rating as Pacific Dunes.]  None of the courses at Streamsong have as good undulation as holes like #2, #7, or #16 at Pacific Dunes.  And of course, putting a good strong par-4 right along a lake is not as exciting as putting it on top of a cliff, like #4 or #13 at Pacific.


However, I think that architecturally, the golf courses at Streamsong are a lot closer to Bandon than they get credit for, and I know that Bill Coore thinks so, too.  It's just impossible to create the same conditions [turf and environment] in Florida as you get on the coast of Oregon.  If that's what you meant by "setting", then I apologize that it set me off, but that's the part that's really integral to the golf.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - honest questions, not rhetorical ones:
Given the differences in the sites that you mentioned, how *can* the courses at Streamsong be "closer architecturally" to those at Bandon than they're given credit for?
That is: in order for you/Bill to say that, don't you have to narrow the definition of architecture down to its very barest bones, ie to the theoretical/paper plans?
I do understand (and in fact have argued for) separating out the setting & the scenery from the architecture and the design.
But what I don't understand is how one can also separate out natural undulations, soils, environment, wind, grasses, and turf conditions from any talk/analysis of the "architecture".
I mean: for professionals like you and Bill, isn't a part (and maybe a big part) of your skill and talent the ability to *incorporate* those very undulations and soil properties and environmental conditions etc into the fabric of your designs?
Far from being *independent* of the architecture, aren't the differences from one site to another the very *drivers* of your particular concept/ethos/brand of architecture?
In short, what can "speaking architecturally" mean for two designers who've made their names -- and created their top flight golf courses -- mainly by honouring and utilizing a given site in its natural state?
I hope I haven't misunderstood you completely, and that I have made myself almost clear.
Peter

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Tom,


You are a great architect, and I am a novice student.  But your suggestion that “setting” has nothing to do with golf is nonsense...and contradicted by your own subsequent statements.


As for style and service, I grant you that they do not directly relate to golf.  But they do relate to my enjoyment of the game.  And my willingness to pay high rates for visiting places like Streamsong.  Without people like me paying for the whole package, not just your golf holes, your fees would be a lot lower.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,


You are a great architect, and I am a novice student.  But your suggestion that “setting” has nothing to do with golf is nonsense...and contradicted by your own subsequent statements.


As for style and service, I grant you that they do not directly relate to golf.  But they do relate to my enjoyment of the game.  And my willingness to pay high rates for visiting places like Streamsong.  Without people like me paying for the whole package, not just your golf holes, your fees would be a lot lower.

Glenn:


First off, I'd be fine if more of my courses were more affordable, and my fees were somewhat lower.  But most of our clients are driven to be at the top of the market, because it's the only secure spot in the overall pricing universe.  That's yet another sad side-effect of capitalism.


I understand better than anybody how important the site is to the finished product -- in fact my whole career success has been because I discarded the conventional wisdom of 1982 that "all the good land is taken", and tried to establish myself as the guy to call if you had a great piece of land. 


Still, it bothers me that people can't look past the setting of the course to see the golf holes.  This thread is 70+ posts deep and only a handful of guys have expressed any firm preference for one course over another, even though the courses are very different.  From some posters it may be a matter of political correctness, but others just don't seem to know how to compare the three courses.  And your own post said zero about what you liked about the courses you favored, other than setting, style, and service.